oldest trick in the book? [Archive] (2024)

scolazz

10th April 2008, 13:35

I wasn't sure if here or 'car talk' was the appropriate place, but here it is.

I've been talking to a dealer about a used car on his lot. This is the same dealer I bought my SUV from new, FYI. It's been two days, and the car is available to show as of today (it was at another of their dealers and had to be shuttled over).

I tell him to call me when it gets there, and I'll swing by after work to take a peek. Well, don't you know, he calls me a few hours later and leaves a voice mail, looking for me to put a deposit on it, as "there is someone else coming by shortly to look at it, I can hear another salesman talking on the phone to them now"

To me, this just seems like an old trick, looking to get me to put a deposit on the car, as I'm sure most people that put deposits down end up buying the car. I have no intention of putting one down, and am prepared to lose the car because of that (lots more fish in the ocean).

Do you think he's pulling my leg? Any of the salesmen on here feel free to chime in, I'd like to get your perspectives, too.

Kylv

10th April 2008, 14:28

gludlow

10th April 2008, 15:06

Call him on the bluff; say "Oh, I wasn't that interested, they can have it!" Dollars to doughnuts he calls you back and says something like "the other buyer backed out." If you go and look, you have to throw it back in his face "Well, if the other guy backed out there must be something wrong with it, so I'll only offer $XXX."

:D

scolazz

10th April 2008, 15:16

Call him on the bluff; say "Oh, I wasn't that interested, they can have it!" Dollars to doughnuts he calls you back and says something like "the other buyer backed out." If you go and look, you have to throw it back in his face "Well, if the other guy backed out there must be something wrong with it, so I'll only offer $XXX."

:D

LOL, I like this one :)

I've already let him know that I'm prepared to let this one get away. The price really is good (I've been watching the market for a while now) - they must have washed the people that traded it in pretty good.

I haven't returned his call, and probably won't. I'll just call him when I'm a few mintues away and let him know I'm coming.

I really don't want to play any games with a dealership - I hate that crap.

thedriving

10th April 2008, 15:34

LOL, I like this one :)

I haven't returned his call, and probably won't. I'll just call him when I'm a few mintues away and let him know I'm coming.

I really don't want to play any games with a dealership - I hate that crap.

Which is it? By not returning a phone call on a vehicle that you seem to have genuine interest in you are playing games.
By waiting until the last minute to call you run the risk of the salesman not being there or available when you get there. That could mean he would lose at least 1/2 of his commission. Most likely the salesman was told to call and ask for the deposit by his manager. Why play games with the guy and risk costing him money when he's just doing his job?

As far as it being a "trick"? not necessarily. It's entirely possible that the manager and or salesman know that this is something you have been looking for and would hate to see you miss out on a good buy.
Besides all that?
How is it a "trick"? He asked a straightforward question: would you like to put a deposit to hold the vehicle? Why should that offend you? Because he said someone else was coming to look at it? So what? There is always 'someone coming to look at the car.
Of course they are trying to solidify your commitment with a deposit. That's the cornerstone of any type of sales: gain the commitment. Or in other words? Close the sale. :dunno: .

thedriving

10th April 2008, 15:40

Oh and to further clarify?
I have had both of these situations:
1)I have a car that I know a customer is looking for. They are coming in later or the next day or whatever and I look up and somebody is looking at "their" car. I call my customer because I don't want to see them miss out and I don't want to lose a sale
2) my manager tells me to call and tell you that someone is looking at it and there isn't another buyer.

In both cases I was doing my job. Either doing what my manager wants me to do or out of concern for my customers.

synchromesh

10th April 2008, 15:44

Which is it? By not returning a phone call on a vehicle that you seem to have genuine interest in you are playing games.
By waiting until the last minute to call you run the risk of the salesman not being there or available when you get there. That could mean he would lose at least 1/2 of his commission. Most likely the salesman was told to call and ask for the deposit by his manager. Why play games with the guy and risk costing him money when he's just doing his job?

Interesting perspective. Your comment implies that the customer must really care about how much a salesman is making. Which is where I totally disagree. The dealer's job is to screw people out of their money. They're not there to be nice, they're not there to make you feel good about yourself. Unless, of course it's your relative or friend which is a rare occurrence. They're there to squeeze you dry and given opportunity, they will do it each and every time because it means more money for them. So why should the OP as a customer care about them?

I say play your games, go to other dealers and only commit when you realize that this is what you want at the price you want to pay. And don't be afraid to screw with the dealer. They will still make their money off of you one way or the other. Of course my personal preference is to have a tad more money in my own pocket and not the dealer's.

jay dub

10th April 2008, 15:49

If the SUV is what you want is at the price you want then don't worry about tricks or whatever else is going to happen. You're the one with the money and if it's not right for you then walk.

If you are getting close to putting down money then I might bring up that I didn't appreciate getting played and if this isn't going to be a smooth transaction then you'll walk. Best deal I got was when I had my kids with us when purchasing my wife a used Maxima. Kids were young and started to get tired and whiney. I told the guy that we'd have to come back later. Everything fell into place in a matter of minutes.
Good Luck!

scolazz

10th April 2008, 15:54

Oh and to further clarify?
I have had both of these situations:
1)I have a car that I know a customer is looking for. They are coming in later or the next day or whatever and I look up and somebody is looking at "their" car. I call my customer because I don't want to see them miss out and I don't want to lose a sale
2) my manager tells me to call and tell you that someone is looking at it and there isn't another buyer.

In both cases I was doing my job. Either doing what my manager wants me to do or out of concern for my customers.

Oh, I wasn't implying that he's not doing his job, just trying to get a feel for how often sales people use this method (getting people to put a deposit cause 'someone else is coming to look at it'). I'm not indicting him or anything, i understand it's just part of the business :)

He knows that I'm coming by tonight to take a look - I've already talked to him about that, and he's going to be there until 8. Like I said earlier, there are lots of fish in the ocean, and if someone is going to buy the car 'out from under me', I'm prepared for that, no big deal.

Your posts take a bit of a defensive stance (though its tough to read that on an internet message board) - I wasn't trying to offend anyone here or anything, just trying to get a feel for the process.

thedriving

10th April 2008, 16:01

thedriving

10th April 2008, 16:21

Greg 713

10th April 2008, 16:40

I'll be honest with you, if you come in and play games and are rude with me as you are advocating? If you disrespect me I'll make sure you lose somehow. I am much better than you at this game. I have played it SO many more times than you.
With all due respect to you and to those who professionally sell cars well you make Synchromesh's point for him. You CAN screw a customer as you know the GAME. Why do you want to make sure somebody looses somehow? You are asking us to respect what you do because if we don't then we will get screwed. Is that respect coming out of respect or fear? Coming to Synchromesh's point full circle. He, and others like him, are fearful because there is something to be fearful of.

I buy for a living and I will say there is nothing better than a great salesman and there isn't much worse than a bad one.

synchromesh

10th April 2008, 18:34

Synchromesh...I feel sorry for people like you, I truly do. Do you approach everything in your life with so much fear or is it just car sales. Is everyone out to get you?
I know it's scary to go into the dealership. People like you are what make it such an adversarial process. I never said he should be concerned with how much the salesperson getsI'll clarify for you: he should be respectfull of the salespersons time. I don't know what you do but what if you were trying to help a client/ customer, whatever and they decided to play games with you and it cost you part of your income? Would that seem fair to you?
Just treat the salespersons time with the same respect you would like in return.
I'll be honest with you, if you come in and play games and are rude with me as you are advocating? If you disrespect me I'll make sure you lose somehow. I am much better than you at this game. I have played it SO many more times than you.
BUT
If you treat me fairly? I'll make sure you get a good deal and are treated with all the respect you deserve. Why make something unpleasant when it doesn't need to be?
Know what your credit is like, know the value of the car you wish to buy and or trade in. If you are educated with those little bits of info you have every chance in the world to get a good deal and still have a pleasurable buying experience.

An excellent reason to never ever go to dealers to buy cars and I never do. None of my cars were bought from dealers by me. And wasn't not because of fear, it was because of loathing for the same old tricks that most of them try to pull, really. I do realize there are some decent guys out there and I've seen them (I helped my friends buy several cars at the dealer) but in a majority of cases polite, decent, honest people don't sell cars. Not that type of business.

Also, I believe in being prepared. A good example would be my friend whom I helped to buy a new TL-S a few months back. When we came to the dealer, he had cash (no financing), he knew the prices cold including the invoice, he knew options he wanted. After we bought it, we checked the price we got on that new '08 TL-S on the web. It was lower than invoice and only a select few people on the Acura forum got prices in the vicinity of ours. Most were at least a grand or two more. Fear? I think not.

What I learned from my dealer experiences is that it IS possible to get a decent price for a car. But on average one must negotiate (or squeeze) it out of the salesman. I also realize that while the dealer doesn't always make the profit they like, they still make some profit even from lowest sale prices. So I see no reason whatsoever to be lenient with them. Of course, it doesn't mean one must scream at the salesman or be impolite but in the end, we're on opposite side of the fence and our interests are different too. If he doesn't make enough from this deal that's his problem, not mine.

earlyapex

10th April 2008, 19:18

Do you think he's pulling my leg? Any of the salesmen on here feel free to chime in, I'd like to get your perspectives, too.

Probably he is, but if you want that particular car he has you would need to play the game - schedule time to look at the car and ignore all this deposit nonsense. If he said truth and car actually is gone there's always next time.

thedriving

10th April 2008, 20:55

Why do you want to make sure somebody looses somehow? You are asking us to respect what you do because if we don't then we will get screwed. Is that respect coming out of respect or fear? Coming to Synchromesh's point full circle. He, and others like him, are fearful because there is something to be fearful of.

Please go back and parse my reply a little more closely and you will find that that I did not ask for respect at the threat of being screwed over. I am not demanding respect or "I will get you". I thought I was pretty clear but I'll re-state my point.
1) if you come in and treat me as a professional and accord me basic human respect I will honor and value that and you will be treated well.
2) if you come in and lie to me and try to screw with me (and therefore screw with my livleihood and therefore my family?) Well then you have made this interaction an unpleasant one. It's the equivalent of punching a guy in the face that is twice your size and then getting your A** handed to you...and then going on line and saying that all big guys go around beating people up. :confused:
The great irony here is that you both agree with me and you don't even realize it.
I diagnosed the disease : those like synchromesh suffer from a bad case of Fear Of Loss.
I gave you the cure: educate yourself, be honest and act with dignity.
If you make it unpleasant I promise you it will be unpleasant. However, if you at least attempt to have a straightforward business transaction...well you just might be surprised.
I know there are some sh**bag car sales people. Don't buy from them!
I also know some sales people that actually feel guilty if they make any profit. :bang:

thedriving

10th April 2008, 21:12

Also, I believe in being prepared. A good example would be my friend whom I helped to buy a new TL-S a few months back. When we came to the dealer, he had cash (no financing), he knew the prices cold including the invoice, he knew options he wanted. After we bought it, we checked the price we got on that new '08 TL-S on the web. It was lower than invoice and only a select few people on the Acura forum got prices in the vicinity of ours. Most were at least a grand or two more. Fear? I think not.

What I learned from my dealer experiences is that it IS possible to get a decent price for a car.

Why am I wasting my breath...you already made my point for me. ;)
Every time I come across one of these threads this ^^is what I suggest. Why, oh why ,synchromesh must you post the crappy rhetoric about "they're all, crooks, screw them before they screw you" when you actually know how to not get screwed and how to be treated fairly?
But the statements you make ? They are symptoms of fear...you know what?
You did exactly what I said to do:
Know what your car is worth. Know what the car you want to buy is worth. Know your finances. The Holy Trinity of car sales.
So why all the hate?
Come synchromesh. Join me in spreading the word to those who suffer from The Fear, help me heal them.
Help me shine a light. ;)

Myah's Daddy

10th April 2008, 22:18

You need to talk to the saleman and call him Greg Brady.

Brad

synchromesh

10th April 2008, 22:41

Why am I wasting my breath...you already made my point for me. ;)
Every time I come across one of these threads this ^^is what I suggest. Why, oh why ,synchromesh must you post the crappy rhetoric about "they're all, crooks, screw them before they screw you" when you actually know how to not get screwed and how to be treated fairly?
But the statements you make ? They are symptoms of fear...you know what?
You did exactly what I said to do:
Know what your car is worth. Know what the car you want to buy is worth. Know your finances. The Holy Trinity of car sales.
So why all the hate?
Come synchromesh. Join me in spreading the word to those who suffer from The Fear, help me heal them.
Help me shine a light. ;)

If I did everything right then where does this whole "fear" thing come from? I don't fear the car salesmen, I dislike them in general with some exceptions. Don't take this personally.

Again, I don't beat them with a stick, call their mothers names or anything of a sort. But I will make them work hard for their money because that is the nature of the business they're in and leaving my money in my pocket is more important to me than filling theirs. I will go to several dealerships, I will definitely make them bid against each other (going lower, not higher) and I will try to squeeze a few options included in the price if possible. If that's morally incorrect, then so be it, Jedi.

And to make some more quotes from the very same movie: "Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." :D

rx8rotary

10th April 2008, 23:38

I'll be honest with you, if you come in and play games and are rude with me as you are advocating? If you disrespect me I'll make sure you lose somehow. I am much better than you at this game. I have played it SO many more times than you.

This attitude is exactly why I have no trust for 99% of car salesmen. Maybe you do know YOUR job better than I do but it is MY money and therefore if I get any indication that you are being anything but straight up with me, I have no problem going to the salesman next to you and buying the car. I have worked too hard for my money for someone to think "I will make sure you lose somehow". (BTW, I wonder how your delaerships owner would feel knowing one of his salesman came on a forum and made that statement.? :rolleyes:) This is why I go into a dealership with the feeling these guys are going to do whatever they can to take me for as much as they can.

I am in the process of buying a Quattroporte (or at least trying :rolleyes: ) and thought I had purchased one in Tampa. I sent a deposit and was preparing to fly down next week and driving it back. The salesman called me yesterday and started telling me some things that didn't add up and so I cancelled the deal on the spot. You would think the salesman would have known his job well enough to know that people who are going to spend that kind of money on a car are typically not stupid and don't play games. The sales manager called me later trying to cover for his salesman but to no avail. I may never own a Quattro but if I do, I can guarantee you it won't be from their place (and no it wasn't the local Maserati dealer there - I buy 1 to 2 year old cars, not new). I wonder how much commission that salesman lost thinking he was going to get a few more bucks out of me? But then again he does know his job so much better than I do. I sort of chuckle when I think about it ;)

When my wife bought her XKR convertible last month my only regret is that I wasn't there when she made the deal. I am sure she got took as she is not a good negotiator. No telling how little they gave her for a 3 month old Corvette convertible and no telling how much profit they made on the deal. They probably laughed all the way to the bank. The difference between me and her is that she buys new and doesn't think much about the costs - I on hte other hand buy used and buy the car as cheaply as possible after doing tons of homework. I guess that is the difference between somoene who has worked their behind off to get ahead versus somoene who has been able to sit back and enjoy the benefits.

gludlow

11th April 2008, 09:12

Greg 713

11th April 2008, 09:32

1) if you come in and treat me as a professional and accord me basic human respect I will honor and value that and you will be treated well.
2) if you come in and lie to me and try to screw with me (and therefore screw with my livleihood and therefore my family?) Well then you have made this interaction an unpleasant one. It's the equivalent of punching a guy in the face that is twice your size and then getting your A** handed to you...and then going on line and saying that all big guys go around beating people up. :confused: (snip) I know there are some sh**bag car sales people. Don't buy from them!

Fair enough.

You have to suffer with the bad reputation of the sh**bag sales people. I know there are good guys in your business. LWW has done much to educate all of us about what happens on "his side of the desk". Unfortunately for every good salesperson there are several uneducated and adversarial type sales people. You probably can spot them a mile away yourself and they probably drive you nuts too. I usually buy private but not always. In the event I do buy from a dealer I will admit a good salesperson is worth their weight in gold. When you find one maintain the relationship. Keep in touch and let him/her know what you are always in the market for. You may get a call out of the blue because they have a 92 Sunburst Miata for $2500. I hope you are one of them (the fact you can put a sentence together and drive a Miata :-) leads me to believe you may be). A poor salesperson on the other hand isn't worth the bag the sh** comes in!

Out of curiousity, do you enjoy a good clean hard negotiation? One where you know you WILL sell a car if an agreement can be made.

NRZ

11th April 2008, 09:36

He may actually be a nice guy and know you want this car. Most the times I ask for a 100 dollar desposit for first right of refuseal. That's the best way to do it. Not all car salesmen are bad people, and I am so sick of reading all the articles on the internet about how to save all the money in the dealers right (People dont go into Stop and Shop and haggle prices, no one haggles gas prices. Whats wrong with some poeple staying in busniess?). I find it hard to believe that even under invoice we are losing cars over the fact that we might actually make 100 bucks on a 20,000 dollar car. I dont understand how people could get a great deal and walk away thinking theres more.

Sorry for the rant.

Put the deposit on the car if you like it, if not move on, quit wasteing the salesmen time. Its a bare market right now and playing with mind deals is getting old.

scolazz

11th April 2008, 11:04

Any updates? Was the car there? Get a good deal?

No, the car hasn't arrived yet. He was supposed to call me last night regardless, but no call.

I just sent him a last email, asking if the car was in. Unless the car is in, and I can look at it today, I'll just tell him to pound sand.

Originally Posted by thedriving
I'll be honest with you, if you come in and play games and are rude with me as you are advocating? If you disrespect me I'll make sure you lose somehow. I am much better than you at this game. I have played it SO many more times than you.

That is a VERY bad attitude, and not at all professional. I'm in 'customer service' myself (in the IT industry), and if I ever pulled that crap, I'd lose my job. Regardless of how my customers treat me, I treat them with respect, and give them as fair a deal as I can. That way, customers A) tend to treat me OK and B) keep coming back for more business. No wonder car salesman have such a bad rep.

EDIT: as a followup, some customers (yes, even in my field) just aren't worth dealing with, and you dump them if you can. Otherwise, they'll cost you more than you make off of them. Rather than try to 'screw' the obnoxious ones, just tell them you'd rather not have their business. Lots of fish in the sea, as I keep saying.

scolazz

11th April 2008, 11:09

Put the deposit on the car if you like it, if not move on, quit wasteing the salesmen time. Its a bare market right now and playing with mind deals is getting old.

I don't think I'm playing 'mind deals' or anything. I'm not going to put a deposit down on a car that I can't see, period. Heck, if I could drive by the dealer and see it out front, I'd probably do it. Right now, this car exists only in pictures on their website, and until I can see it in person, no deposit. It was supposed to be in yesterday morning, and still isn't.

I bought my Murano from this dealer (from a great sales guy that is no longer there), so I was hoping for a similar experience, and so far, am not getting it. That doesn't mean that I won't get a good experience, just that sofar, all signs point to a 'typical' dealer experience.

Mike Nassour

11th April 2008, 11:20

I've found what I think is a useful way to approach this situation. When I get such a call when I'm shopping for a car, I politely let the salesman know in no uncertain terms that, yes, while I am ready to buy and am interested in his vehicle that there is always another car that I can purchase, somewhere. And that I'm ready to go look for it if his goes away.

That usually settles folks down and let's them know that I don't have to buy from them.

scolazz

11th April 2008, 11:22

He may actually be a nice guy and know you want this car. Most the times I ask for a 100 dollar desposit for first right of refuseal. That's the best way to do it. Not all car salesmen are bad people, and I am so sick of reading all the articles on the internet about how to save all the money in the dealers right (People dont go into Stop and Shop and haggle prices, no one haggles gas prices. Whats wrong with some poeple staying in busniess?). I find it hard to believe that even under invoice we are losing cars over the fact that we might actually make 100 bucks on a 20,000 dollar car. I dont understand how people could get a great deal and walk away thinking theres more.

Sorry for the rant.

Put the deposit on the car if you like it, if not move on, quit wasteing the salesmen time. Its a bare market right now and playing with mind deals is getting old.

And to throw my last .02$ on this one - you mention that 'People dont go into Stop and Shop and haggle prices', which is true. But when I go to Home Depot to buy a kitchen worth of appliances (which is probably the value of the car I'm looking at), they don't pull out that '4 square' BS and try to mess with the numbers for the financing, either.

It goes both ways. You have sleazy car buyers, and sleazy car salesmen. Not everyone, on both sides, are sleazy though. When two honest people, a buyer and seller, get together, then things probably go pretty smoothly, right?

rx8rotary

11th April 2008, 11:23

No, the car hasn't arrived yet. He was supposed to call me last night regardless, but no call.

Proves it was sales trick. The salesman lead you to believe someone was coming to see it shortly thus it must be at the dealership already.

I would have already told the saleman to pound sand and contact another salesman.

scolazz

11th April 2008, 11:37

Proves it was sales trick. The salesman lead you to believe someone was coming to see it shortly thus it must be at the dealership already.

I would have already told the saleman to pound sand and contact another salesman.

yeah, you pretty much nailed it. If the car is as advertised its a great car at a great price, so I'm going to give him one more chance. Maybe I'm just a sucker? :D

scolazz

11th April 2008, 14:03

well, just came back from looking at it.

What dealer would put a car up for sale, with the Check Engine light on?

*sigh*

No, I won't put a deposit on a car that needs work, sorry guys. I told them to call me when the work is done, but I'm writing it off unless the get it done quickly.

Rich Wilkman

11th April 2008, 14:25

What person, who actually wanted a car, would let the MIL kill the deal instead of simply making fixing the problem (could be as simple as the gas cap) a requirement to close the sale. If everything else is good put it becomes a 'put up or shut up' moment.

It's not like you're buying from someone who doesn't have mechanics at their disposal. Many private party buyers would have simply disconnected the battery for 30 seconds and you wouldn't have know any better.

-Rich

jjjetta

11th April 2008, 14:28

Its funny, I just bought a new car a few weeks ago, but I was looking at one at another dealer. The dealer was a bit farther away, but it had my 1st choice color. I had bought from that sales guy before. This was a Friday, then he pulled the "why don't you put a deposit on it so we can keep it for you, its a popular color right now" since I wasn't ready to buy until Monday or Tuesday. My heart sank - here was another crook!

Long story short, the car sold on Saturday. Was gone when I went to get it on Tuesday. In this economy a frikkin Jetta was sold out from under me!

In my mind, he should have just held it for me, period, but I understand he does have to make money, and he had no money from me....so....

rx8rotary

11th April 2008, 14:34

In my mind, he should have just held it for me, period, but I understand he does have to make money, and he had no money from me....so....

If dealerships had a dollar for every person who said "I will be there Monday to get the car", they would never have to sell another car. While I don't beleive in leaving a deposit unless I am about 99% sure I will be buying the car (or it is refundable if I get there and don't like the car), I don't expect anyone to hold it for me based on my promise to be there. I don't trust them and they don't trust me.

scolazz

11th April 2008, 14:35

It's not like you're buying from someone who doesn't have mechanics at their disposal. Many private party buyers would have simply disconnected the battery for 30 seconds and you wouldn't have know any better.

-Rich

I understand the point you are making here, but I don't agree. Thats one of the 'advantages' of going to a dealer. You trust that they don't do this to sell the car. Putting a car on the lot that 'needs work' seems a bit amatuerish to me.

Sure, I can put a deposit down, and trust that they fix the car. Or they can fix the car, and trust that I'll put a deposit down then. I should have taken a drive through the local Autozone and had the code read :)

The car also needed the tires balanced, and a new timing belt. I let them know all that, so we'll see what they do.

I'm not in a rush, and there are cars as nice out there that don't need work done to them.

S

NRZ

11th April 2008, 14:41

And to throw my last .02$ on this one - you mention that 'People dont go into Stop and Shop and haggle prices', which is true. But when I go to Home Depot to buy a kitchen worth of appliances (which is probably the value of the car I'm looking at), they don't pull out that '4 square' BS and try to mess with the numbers for the financing, either.

It goes both ways. You have sleazy car buyers, and sleazy car salesmen. Not everyone, on both sides, are sleazy though. When two honest people, a buyer and seller, get together, then things probably go pretty smoothly, right?

True, when the planets line up right and the moon is full, good times could be had by all.

krobberts

11th April 2008, 15:31

Rich Wilkman

11th April 2008, 17:00

I don't think there's anything, including giving you the car for free, that would make you happy.

The car came from "elsewhere" and hits the lot and you're notified so you can come see it soonest (as you requested?).

The sales guy says there's someone else interested. Could be true, could be a game, you chose that you're a target. Fine.

It hasn't been inspected or probably gone through the normal processing before being floored for sale. The MIL is on. It's something they'd have to fix, you know it, they know it. It's not like the car is going to leave the lot in bad form. You decide they're still out to get you for daring to present the car to you "soonest" but not in pristine condition.

If they'd said the car was going to be available for you to look at yesterday and then you got there and found that it was in service getting stuff fixed, you probably would have been ticked about that, too.

Any transaction is a compromise. Give and take. You make it sound like they're just itchin' to break out the KY when all they did was try to get you to change from lookie-loo to serious buyer. This ain't rocket science and it doesn't have to be painful on either side of the table.

Just curious; how did you know that the tires needed balancing and the timing belt needed replacement. Did you take the car out to a mech for it or did you just look at the odometer and assume?

-Rich

I understand the point you are making here, but I don't agree. Thats one of the 'advantages' of going to a dealer. You trust that they don't do this to sell the car. Putting a car on the lot that 'needs work' seems a bit amatuerish to me.

Sure, I can put a deposit down, and trust that they fix the car. Or they can fix the car, and trust that I'll put a deposit down then. I should have taken a drive through the local Autozone and had the code read :)

The car also needed the tires balanced, and a new timing belt. I let them know all that, so we'll see what they do.

I'm not in a rush, and there are cars as nice out there that don't need work done to them.

S

carcrazy1

11th April 2008, 17:28

If you disrespect me I'll make sure you lose somehow. I am much better than you at this game. I have played it SO many more times than you.

And this statement fairly sums up the typical pompous jacka$$ attitude that you will find at most dealerships...with but a few exceptions. The shiester reputation that car salesmen enjoy is one well earned.

The net result for the buying public is....

...I have no trust for 99% of car salesmen.

TheGeezer

11th April 2008, 18:20

Oh and to further clarify?
I have had both of these situations:
1)I have a car that I know a customer is looking for. They are coming in later or the next day or whatever and I look up and somebody is looking at "their" car. I call my customer because I don't want to see them miss out and I don't want to lose a sale
2) my manager tells me to call and tell you that someone is looking at it and there isn't another buyer.

In both cases I was doing my job. Either doing what my manager wants me to do or out of concern for my customers.

But then....

2) if you come in and lie to me and try to screw with me (and therefore screw with my livleihood and therefore my family?) Well then you have made this interaction an unpleasant one.

This is not cool. Why you lie you're just doing your job, but if someone lies to you *they're* making the interaction unpleasant???

scolazz

11th April 2008, 19:54

I don't think there's anything, including giving you the car for free, that would make you happy.

The car came from "elsewhere" and hits the lot and you're notified so you can come see it soonest (as you requested?).

The sales guy says there's someone else interested. Could be true, could be a game, you chose that you're a target. Fine.

It hasn't been inspected or probably gone through the normal processing before being floored for sale. The MIL is on. It's something they'd have to fix, you know it, they know it. It's not like the car is going to leave the lot in bad form. You decide they're still out to get you for daring to present the car to you "soonest" but not in pristine condition.

If they'd said the car was going to be available for you to look at yesterday and then you got there and found that it was in service getting stuff fixed, you probably would have been ticked about that, too.

Any transaction is a compromise. Give and take. You make it sound like they're just itchin' to break out the KY when all they did was try to get you to change from lookie-loo to serious buyer. This ain't rocket science and it doesn't have to be painful on either side of the table.

Just curious; how did you know that the tires needed balancing and the timing belt needed replacement. Did you take the car out to a mech for it or did you just look at the odometer and assume?

-Rich

Rich

I think you have me pegged wrongly here. The ad said the car was on their lot - it wasn't (it was on another of their dealers lots). Before the car got there, he said others were coming in to look at it. They weren't, which I know now, as the car didn't get to this lot until this afternoon. No big deal there.

I understand that the car won't leave the lot until they go over it, and fix the MIL. I'm just not comfortable plunking my hard earned cash down on a promise. Just like I wouldn't expect them to hold the car for me, on a promise that I'd buy it if they fixed it up. If someone else were to come in and drop a deposit on it, its my loss, not theirs, and I'm prepared for that.

If they said the car was going to be there, and I showed up and it was in service, yes, I'd be ticked - they said the car would be there. If they told me they were bringing the car there, then servicing the car and I could look at it tomorrow, that would be fine. I'm not in a rush here, and I've told them that. He seems to be trying to rush me into the sale, which I don't like.

I don't think they are out to get me, I hope I didn't come off that way. I'm just very averse to getting my chain yanked - be upfront with me, tell me its going to take two days to get the car to this lot, and service it - I'd be happy for that level of communication. I don't like it when they lie to me (white lies, to be sure, its all part of the process).

As for the tires, you can feel the shimmy on the highway. And the TB needs to be changed as part of scheduled maintenance, which is due in 500 miles. Volvo puts a sticker under the hood with the date and mileage that the TB was changed at, which this Volvo did not have. Volvos have an interference engine, and I don't want to take any chances with that, so I'd like the TB to be replaced on time/mileage. I'm actually seeing this alot - people are trading the cars in a few thousand miles before this service is due. Some dealers do the work upfront before they sell it, others don't. It's not a deal breaker for me, but will affect price negotiations.

I'm not out to get anyone here, I just don't want to 'get gotten' if you know what I mean. My wife thinks I should go back in and put a deposit on it, which I just may do tomorrow, we'll see. I'm just uncomfortable with that MIL on.

S

justin.b

11th April 2008, 20:28

I don't know what you do but what if you were trying to help a client/ customer, whatever and they decided to play games with you and it cost you part of your income? Would that seem fair to you?
Just treat the salespersons time with the same respect you would like in return.

Salesmen need to make the sale to make money.

If a salesman chooses a tactic that may cost him the sale, it's not the customer's fault to feel bad about that. Besides, the OP let the salesman know he wasn't committed enough to place a deposit at that time - so he's free to seek other buyers without guilt.

People buy from people they trust. If the salesman does something that undermones that trust, he is putting the sale in jeopardy. No need for the buyer to feel bad about not buying if he intended to buy and the car wasn't as descibed or the dealer starts jerking him around.

I know car sales are tough, but taking a look at a car you are interested in and have the means to buy is not wasting a salesman's time - even if you do not buy after inspecting / driving.

-Justin

justin.b

11th April 2008, 20:35

Its funny, I just bought a new car a few weeks ago, but I was looking at one at another dealer. The dealer was a bit farther away, but it had my 1st choice color. I had bought from that sales guy before. This was a Friday, then he pulled the "why don't you put a deposit on it so we can keep it for you, its a popular color right now" since I wasn't ready to buy until Monday or Tuesday. My heart sank - here was another crook!

Long story short, the car sold on Saturday. Was gone when I went to get it on Tuesday. In this economy a frikkin Jetta was sold out from under me!

In my mind, he should have just held it for me, period, but I understand he does have to make money, and he had no money from me....so....

If you were going to buy on Monday, putting a deposit down on Friday wasn't that big an ask - especially since it seems like he wasn't jerking you around about the demand for that car.

I'd have to say that this one's on you.

-Justin

thedriving

11th April 2008, 20:55

I'm not going to go in and correct all the stupid misunderstandings. I will make one last attempt to clarify somethin.
Do you not see a difference between: my manager tells me to tell you someone is looking at the car and so I do as I am told, (which is harmless, it didn't cost you a dime) or I tell you that it is a clear title when it's actually salvaged?
The first is a stupid tactic that I don't feel works and I don't like to use and the second is a flat out lie that could cost you money and I would never do. I have done the first and not much cared for it. I have never and would never do the second.
Let me give you 2 scenarios.
Scenario one: You come to my dealership I up you and you are polite and friendly. When I ask you a simple question such as "what type of vehicle are you looking for you give me a simple answer. "I'm looking for a midsized sedan, I like japanese cars, no domestics" Instead of "anything" you know full well that you want a sedan, why traipse all over the lot with me showing you trucks and vans and suv's when you want a sedan?
Or when I ask a simple yes or no answer you don't lie to me. "will you be trading anything in?" Why say no when you know you do?
So in this situation when we sit down to negotiate I know I'm dealing with somebody who is up front with me and deals with me fairly. It makes the process quicker, less painfull and you will get a good deal. Of course I'll make some profit this is a business not a charity.

Scenario two: This guy tells me that he hates car salesmen when he walks on the lot. (suddenly I'm not feeling so sweet on him either) We wander all over the lot until he finally says "do you have any sedans, that's really what we need." When I ask about a trade he lies to me and says "no, no trade."
This whole time he's been dismissive and lied to me repeatedly.
Now we're sitting down to negotiate. Turns out he does have a trade. Oops. Turns out he has negative equity. Oops again.
So instead of being up front with you about what your trade is really worth I have to under allow (UA) your trade because I know you're going to beat me up on the value and I need to give myself more negotiation room than normal. So now you and I go back and forth and it takes much longer for us to agree on what the actual cash value of your car is (ACV) And, because we started at a lower number, I've increased the odds that I can UA on the true ACV of your trade. (that equals profit for me).
So we agree on the value of your car and how much we'll sell you ours for and now any negative equity you have is going onto your new car.
Now here's howyou could have saved yourself some money. (not to mention he brain damage and time we've wasted)
lets say I only have $3k of profit in the car you're looking at and my dealership has a policy that we won't sell any used car for less than $1,500 profit. I can only discount the car $1,500 to help you out with the negative equity.
What you don't know is that I have another car identical to the one you're buying that we own for less. If you had been honest and fair with me I would be willing to sell you the car that we own for less money and still make my $1,500.
That's what I mean when I say I know the game better than you. If you had been professional with me I could have saved you money and made the same amout of profit.
But,no, you had to come in and, because you're so scared of losing money, act like a tool with me and in the process cost yourself money.
I'll say it again:don't be a jerk wo me, know what your car is worth and how much our car is worth and what your financial situation is and you can get a good deal. If at step one I am a jerk to you? Don't do business with me.

Sorry for the long post, I hope it's been at least a little educational.

thedriving

11th April 2008, 21:50

justin.b

11th April 2008, 23:16

How can you cost me money if I walk off your lot?

All your schemes only work if I decide to do business with you.

You're a scheister.

Sorry... posting from work. My manager told me to say that - I know you understand and certainly won't take any offense. I am only doing my job. Of course you understand, buddy. Hey, have I told you about True Coat?

-Justin

tbearmiata

11th April 2008, 23:31

I hate the car buying process and once I find a good salesperson, I'll stick with them if they have the car I'm looking for. On the other hand, if I get lied to or pressured to "buy now" then I'm out of there.

The worst problem I had was when looking for a new Passat wagon a few years ago in Atlanta. Found one in the listings of a dealer, called and the salesperson immediately started off on the "better leave a deposit 'cause they move fast" routine. I declined but said I would be there when dealer opened on Sunday. I made the 45 minute drive, got there about 20 minutes before opening, find the car and guess what - the car is in parking area of the bodyshop with the back end caved in (what looks like at least $2k in damage). Couldn't believe it. Found the salesman who told me that it would be fixed pretty quickly and wouldn't affect the car. Yeah, right.

Read drivin's post. Are people really stupid enough to come to a lot and just wander around when they know what they really need/want? I have never gone to a lot to just "look around" - I do that when dealer isn't open. What a waste of everyone's time.

RawRats

12th April 2008, 00:13

Thedriving,

What you’ve described is a prime example of why most folks find car salesmen so objectionable. You deride the customer for not knowing how to play the game. You and your peers generally look down your noses at the customer for not following the “rules” of engagement.

It is an game, after all, and a highly adversarial one at that. At stake is a sum of money. Your job, if you are serving the dealership you work for, is to get as much of it as you can from the customer. The customer’s job is to keep as much of his own money as he can. Now, most folks understand that a reasonable profit must be made by the dealership in order to stay in business. But what’s a reasonable profit? You know what that is, but he doesn’t. He only knows that it’s coming out of his pocket and into yours (the dealership).

He also knows that you hold all of the cards. You have the benefit of training in how to manipulate people. You have the experience of engaging in the game at least several times a week, if not several times per day, whereas his experience is limited to maybe once every 5 to 10 years. You know what you’ve paid for car and how much room you have to negotiate, but the customer doesn’t. You (the dealership) will never lose money on a deal, whereas the sky’s the limit on how much profit you can glean from the customer. You, by your own admission, will allow personalities to determine how you will treat the customer.

You complain about the customer wanting to lessen the amount of money that you take home to your family, but fail to understand that the customer is only wanting to take as much of his own money back to his own family. Each of you resents the other for wanting as much of the pie as each can get.

I do feel sorry for the sales people in a couple of respects. You are caught between the dealership owner and the customer. The dealership requires you to be manipulative, secretive, and by your own admission, deceptive. They get you to do their dirty work for them. Most folks couldn’t do what is asked of you. I pity those of you who can, and despise those of you who relish the game. Also, sales people rarely enjoy the level of lifestyle that the dealership owner does. I’m not aware of any owners that live paycheck to paycheck like their sales staff. The high turnover in sales staff is quite understandable.

At 59 years old, I’ve had plenty of car buying experiences, some good, but most distasteful. I’ve come to recognize when I’m being manipulated and am immediately turned off by it and become resentful of it.

Sorry, thedriving, but I see your position as indefensible, as do most of us “customers”.

gludlow

12th April 2008, 00:31

But TheDriving got a set of free '99 sport package 15's from a guy out of leander once. He's obviously smarter than all us "little people" and we should bow to him and all car salesmen :D

Seriously though, and back on topic, please post whenever you do see the car. I'm waiting for more details!

thedriving

12th April 2008, 00:38

How can you cost me money if I walk off your lot?

All your schemes only work if I decide to do business with you.

You're a scheister.

-Justin
Good lord. I'm not a scheister. But you are clueless.I know 2 things about you:
1) you like miatas
2) youy didn't do well on the "reading comprehension" part of standardized testing.

Clearly you have either NOT read my posts, or you did not understand them. I know I tend to use big words so I'll make it easy for you: If you are a nice person to me, I'll be nice to you. If you treat me like crap, I won't go out of my way to be nice to you.
Oh, and you would buy a car from me.
Wanna' know why?
Because I am a professional and I treat all my customers with respect. I listen to them and figure out their needs and wants.
You would be rude to me, I'd smile it off and make a 4-pounder off you. You would tell your friends how you told that guy at the dealership "what's up" and I'd tell my friends how this a-hole came in and I made a G off him.
Whatever.
to TBEARMIATA?
You. Have. No. Idea.
I spent 45 minutes today with a woman only to have her tell me, "oh I'm not buying for a year at least"...she's looking for a USED car.
People come omto the lot all the time and you say "Hi, how can I help you?"
You know what they say.
They say "I'm just looking."
Fine...knee jerk response, whatever.
But you would be surprised how many know exactly what they are looking for but they are sooo driven by fear they are afraid to even tell you what they want. As if somehow you give them this most basic information you will somehow get over on them.
I say, "what are you looking for? Car, truck, suv or minivan? I know our inventory pretty, well maybe I could point you in the right direction?"
"I don't know...whatever I can get a good deal on."
"So if I have a hot air balloon or a snowmobile I could make you a great deal on you'd be interested?"
"well...no"
It's sad really.
If I go into a department store and I'm loolking for a suit, I tell the clerk, "I'm looking for a suit"
I'm in no more danger of being tricked into a suit that's too expensive for me than before I told the clerk I'm looking for a suit. But I have a pretty good chance of being shown a suit...which is the whole reason I went to the store.
In the history of car sales no salesperson has EVER gone to someones house and tried to sell them a car.
People come to us and then act like we are bothering them by trying to do our job.

Anyway, I contribute to these kinds of threads because I am trying to help people...and then I get morons calling me a shiester. If I negotiate better than you I'm a shiester?
Meh.
I quit.
I did my best to help, but...if people are too stupid or lazy to simply read the words, digest them and get something out of it?
Not much I can do.
It reminds me of when I was teaching high school english. Things that you assume to be simple concepts are beyond the grasp of your audience.
Oh well. I did my best.

thedriving

12th April 2008, 00:49

But TheDriving got a set of free '99 sport package 15's from a guy out of leander once. He's obviously smarter than all us "little people" and we should bow to him and all car salesmen :D

Seriously though, and back on topic, please post whenever you do see the car. I'm waiting for more details!

yeah, I cleverly tricked him into posting it in "the dumpster" section of miata.net. I'm so good that I used the Jedi Mind Trick on him...oh did you know that car sales people are direct descendants of The Jedi Masters?
That's a fact.
I'm trying to help take the fear out of walking into a dealership...what are you doing?
Why bother even posting?

rx8rotary

12th April 2008, 00:51

.
Oh, and you would buy a car from me.
Wanna' know why?
Because I am a professional and I treat all my customers with respect. I listen to them and figure out their needs and wants.
You would be rude to me, I'd smile it off and make a 4-pounder off you. You would tell your friends how you told that guy at the dealership "what's up" and I'd tell my friends how this a-hole came in and I made a G off him.
Whatever.

You really believe this? Do you really believe you are that much smarter than 99% of the people who are buying cars? I have been very successful in the business world - I retired at 47. I didn't get there because I was stupid and let people take advantage of me (This doesn't make me anyone special but has taught me a lot about dealing with people) I know car salesmen have made money off me - if they hadn't they would not have completed the deal; however, I am a good judge of people and have learned to see through their act. I would not come in and be a jerk; however, I know that most salesmen are only being nice to me to make a sale because in reality they couldn't care less about me if they don't sell me something. I am a number to them - either a sale or a no-sale. I have watched salesmen be so nice to me as if they were my best friend while trying to get me into a car but if the deal doesn't work out just right, they become a totally different person. How a salesman acts while negotiating goes a long way as to whether he gets my business or not. I have learned to read body language very well and a salesman's body language plays a big factor in how much I am willing to tolerate from him/her.

I doubt you and I would do very well in a car deal - and of course not at all knowing what you have said. As I am currently in the market for a car, your comments have certainly caused me to be even more skeptical of the salesmen I will be dealing with.

thedriving

12th April 2008, 02:08

You made a mostly intelligent post ...I was about to give up on this thread...but I'll respond to you because you addressed me directly.
so: You deride the customer for not knowing how to play the game.

No. I deride them for treating me like crap and then expecting me to treat them like the a King.

You and your peers generally look down your noses at the customer for not following the “rules” of engagement.

we react to the way you treat us. I know this will shock you but most salespeople are decent people doing a hard job. A hard job makes anybody at least a little bit hard. If you treat a hard person badly they react.
Pick on a person doing a hard job in another field...lets say construction? You want to walk up to a construction worker and tell him he's the scum of the earth? But it's totally fine to say that to me, no?

It is an game, after all, and a highly adversarial one at that. At stake is a sum of money. Your job, if you are serving the dealership you work for, is to get as much of it as you can from the customer. The customer’s job is to keep as much of his own money as he can

Yep. Just like EVERY OTHER BUSINESS ON THE PLANET. Does anybody here go to work to NOT make money?
(crickets...waiting for somebody to chime in....crickets)

Now, most folks understand that a reasonable profit must be made by the dealership in order to stay in business.

Ah..it had to happen, our first truly divergent point. The number of people who desire for us to make nothing is staggering you have no idea how many people have said, "make money off somebody else, not me."

You have the experience of engaging in the game at least several times a week, if not several times per day, whereas his experience is limited to maybe once every 5 to 10 years.

Precisely! So why treat me like an idiot? Why not treat me like the pro that I am and not try to get one over on me?
I don't know anything about plants. When my wife wanted me to re-do our backyard I went to the local nursery and said "help me".
I knew I had to come back with: a tree, some ground covering and some "pretty flowers"... did I go in and treat the nice young lady like an idiot? uhhh no.

You complain about the customer wanting to lessen the amount of money that you take home to your family, but fail to understand that the customer is only wanting to take as much of his own money back to his own family.

ENNH! wrong answer.
That's actually misquoting me. (I expect more of you buddy, you've been pretty keen so far. )
What I was talking about was the fact that if the buyer screws around and just shows up when he knows he's coming in at a certain time then the risk is he will cost, at least 1/2 commission for the sales person. The point was this man is a professional who works on %100 commission, just be respectful of his time.

I do feel sorry for the sales people in a couple of respects. You are caught between the dealership owner and the customer. The dealership requires you to be manipulative, secretive, and by your own admission, deceptive. They get you to do their dirty work for them. Most folks couldn’t do what is asked of you. I pity those of you who can, and despise those of you who relish the game. Also, sales people rarely enjoy the level of lifestyle that the dealership owner does. I’m not aware of any owners that live paycheck to paycheck like their sales staff. The high turnover in sales staff is quite understandable.

ahhh now we are talking like grown folks!
This is why I have chosen to not walk away. This is the crux of the problem. The customer thinks that we are the toadie doing what the dealership requires.
I have said these words countless times:

There is a phrase in the car business "don't work the desk work the customer" the reality is I have to do both. You want to pay less, they want you to pay more. My job is to work out a deal between the 2 of you.
I'm like a damn marriage counselor.
The reality is we salesmen are free labor, they only pay us when we make them money. You have no idea the stupid crap we have to do. Who do you think puts up those stupid freaking balloons?! Who moves the cars around?
(lot rodeo?)
Yes every owner I know lives high on the hog.
The salesman is a grunt and the people who come through the door and treat us like crap and somehow feel justified.

The only reason I have responded to this thread over and over is that I am trying to help people not be fearful when they come on a lot.
Yes there are bad salesmen.
Newsflash?
Bad people have jobs in every sector of life. Name me one field that does not have a single ( or.. multiple? ) bad people in it and I will prove you a liar.

Sorry, thedriving, but I see your position as indefensible, as do most of us “customers”.

ok well Maybe it's fitting for a guy with an English degree to be all Quixotic about this.
If you take the time to go back and actually intelligently read all my posts? You'll see that I have engaged in this whole stupid debate to try to help people.
Like when I was a teacher, or social worker, or banker ....I give. I'm trying to help. But ok,
Y'all win.
Salespeople bad
Buyers good.
:)

Stitches

12th April 2008, 04:24

thedriving,

You are coming off as the most arrogant person on the forum and making yourself look like a real jerk. There is a reason people don't like to deal with car salesmen and the attitude you have toward everyone in this thread is an example of why.

Your first post in this thread is full of pointed comments and obvious anger you have built up from your customers. The people on this forum are on your side and you should treat us like your friends. Do you really want people to read your last post? I would be embarrassed at the thought of people realizing how arrogant I was to tell another forum member "ENNH! wrong answer."

If you want to help people like you say you do, you need to learn a lot more about human nature and how to make people feel comfortable. You have worked in the opposite direction of that in every one of your posts.

Why don't you just stop posting? You're digging quite a nice hole.

jambo101

12th April 2008, 05:08

thedriving,

You are coming off as the most arrogant person on the forum and making yourself look like a real jerk. There is a reason people don't like to deal with car salesmen and the attitude you have toward everyone in this thread is an example of why.
.

Thats a little harsh,from what i'm reading its a salesman just trying to give some advice and air a few grievances he has about some customers.I dont blame some one for trying to take advantage of their position if you are going to treat them like crap.The best way to get along with the car salesman is to have done your homework and know the pricing parameters on the car you want to buy that way you know if you are being conned and not just assuming the guy is ripping you off,If you want to see some real attitude try being a car salesman for a few days and then tell us what you now think of the car buying public.

Stitches

12th April 2008, 05:51

Thats a little harsh,from what i'm reading its a salesman just trying to give some advice and air a few grievances he has about some customers.
I agree that if someone is going to treat you like crap while you're in your workplace that they should expect the same. The driving is right when he makes the parallels to construction workers and how they expect to be treated. I think it's true how he feels that people can say whatever they want about car salesmen because it's socially acceptable. The problem I have is with the tone that he's using to draw any of his points. Everything that I've read has validity to it but then the point he made is overshadowed by tone.

Without any sarcasm at all: I think you're right, Thedriving. People walk into car dealerships afraid of loosing out on thousands and are at the mercy of pro car salesmen. They make mistakes and end up worse of then they would be if they didn't try to give the salesmen the run around sometimes.

Don't get sucked into a defensive position. People are intensely skeptical of car salesmen and well all have stories as to why.

P.S. I would delete that first post I made if I could. It's late here and I waited too long to try to edit it. I should follow my own advice and stop posting on this thread before I dig a nice hole of my own.

justin.b

12th April 2008, 09:53

I did my best to help, but...if people are too stupid or lazy to simply read the words, digest them and get something out of it?
Not much I can do.
It reminds me of when I was teaching high school english. Things that you assume to be simple concepts are beyond the grasp of your audience.
Oh well. I did my best.

My reading comprehension is just fine. You made a post about how you would screw a customer (Not how you COULD screw a custome, but how you WOULD screw a customer) if they don't show you their entire hand up front.

As a salesman, do you disclose how much money you personaly will make on the transaction at a certain price? Of course not.

You may whip out a ridiculous 'invoice' price that has nothing to do with what the dealership has paid for the car (even though you will present that number as if there is an invoice in the accounting department for that car at that price - which there isn't).

Do you tell the customer that you are under-allowing on their trade?

You hold back a lot more relevant information than the customer, yet the customer gets thrown on the "I'm gonna srew you" pile for withholding the slightest detail.

-Justin

justin.b

12th April 2008, 10:02

Without any sarcasm at all: I think you're right, Thedriving. People walk into car dealerships afraid of loosing out on thousands and are at the mercy of pro car salesmen. They make mistakes and end up worse of then they would be if they didn't try to give the salesmen the run around sometimes.

That's really the customer's own fault. If you don't like the deal - walk.

People get tunnel-vision at the negotiation stage and just seem to follow it through to its end without considering that they can (and often should) just walk away.

I'm sure thedriving has seen people in this state, and can by this point in his carreer can tell just by the way someone walks into the showroom whether or not he will sell them a car that day. All he has to do is keep the momentum up and the customer will buy something. He can probably tell whether or not the customer has a trade-in that they're upside-down on or if they have bad credit by the time he has greeted them.

Then he's had the same customer that his instinct tells him has a trade and bad credit and no money negotiate with him as if they have a pocketful of cash or will be instantly approved for financing on anything on the lot - only to find out later that his instincts were correct and they they had, indeed, wasted his time by trying to negotiate along lines completely irrelevant to their situation.

I think the customers are consistent, it's his instincts that have become sharper and his frustration comes from waiting for the customer to reveal information that he's already sure is true.

I understand where he's coming from, but sometimes I really am just shopping. I shop for a TV or a stereo and compare different models from different outlets. There's no reason I should be expected to buy something that costs several times more without an equal amount of research.

-Justin

Lance Schall

12th April 2008, 10:11

Greg 713

12th April 2008, 11:18

I have been following this thread and have even posted a few times. I appreciate what thedriving is trying to do. But his frustration of not being able to communicate his point is at the crux of the issue. thedriving is a professional negotiator. Your average car buyer does it 10 times in their life. More? Less? Is it a level playing field? No. It is just a fact. Nothing deviant. But who wants to go in knowing they are the rookie?

If the driving went in for a root canal he would be the "rookie". The dentist says, "pay this much", and thedriving does. Somebody who negotiates professional services for Blue Cross-Blue Shield would pay much less. Why, because they are in their element and could negotiate a lower fee using the right "language".

As I mentioned previous I am a professional buyer. One of the items I buy is print. I want the printers I buy from to be profitable. Why? It benefits me in the long run. If they are profitable they plow profit into equipment and technology thus giving me a better product. I also want the printer to be profitable so they stay in business. I had 2 printers that sold only price. One is out of business and the other has filed for re-organization. Hard to get reprints or files from a printer who is gone. Will we getter better alignment from a well euipped service department or from a run down dealer using 45 year old equipment?

Price is just one of the many negotiable elements to the deal. It is the element I focus on the least. Why? It is the least elastic of all of the other elements. Speed, delivery, proofing, production options and time of press views are more elastic and create a better value than JUST PRICE.

LWW, a forum member who has been in the biz so long he sold wagons to General Washington :D has a write up in the garage section about buying cars. Read it and prepare yourself. thedriving has been right on that. Know what your trade is worth, know what you can afford, know what invoice is. But do yourself a favor. Negotiate 1 item at a time. thedriving is able to negotiate sale price, trade and payments at the same time as it is his job, he better be good at it. Us buyers who do this infrequently should slow down and do the 3 spearate deals one at a time. If the salesperson will not repsect that, go elsewhere.

One last thing, if you feel a little flustered, there is no law that says you can't go across the stree to StarSchmucks with your spouse and have a cup of coffee to slow things down and talk it through on your "own turff". thedriving could sell you a car in 20 minutes if he is half the professional I suspect he is. Us average Joe buyers need longer than that. S-L-O-W it down to your speed. If you rush you will leave money on the table. Many call it being screwed but that isn't fair. I left the money there but it is easier to call the dealer a thief because that goes over better at the office than saying, "I went too quick and left $1800 at the dealer and have nothing to show for it".

A last word in defense of us customers, car sales and lawyers don't have the reputation they have by accident so lawyers and car sales people don't be mad at us, be mad at your predecessors.

justin.b

12th April 2008, 11:46

Thedriving wants to know about the trade and financing before settling on price. I can understand his motivation for doing so, but I am just looking for the best price first.

If the price is right, we can talk about a trade. If the trade allowance is too low, I will just keep the car or sell it to a family member or if it's way too low I'll put the thing on craigslist for the same money they're offering.

Same thing for financing. I go in with a car loan already approved. If the dealership can offer better then I will take it. Until we're at the financing stage of negotiating, I don't want to speak in terms of monthly payments.

If the salesman is uncomfortable working with me in this manner, that's fine. There is always someone who will.

The number one tool that buyers have in their favor is the ability to walk away. I don't give them my keys, I don't let them have my license for more than a minute or two and I don't feel like this is my only chance at a deal. Walking away doesn't mena I won't come back and buy. I have walked away, considered the deal, and then returned to the same salesman to make the purchase.

A good deal Saturday afternoon will still seem like a good deal Monday morning - and I have never had the salesman say that I blew it and the previous deal was no longer available. If he did, I will guarantee I could get the same deal within an hour by emailing other dealerhips.

Obviously things will change for you if shopping for used cars.

-Justin

Greg 713

12th April 2008, 11:58

Obviously things will change for you if shopping for used cars.

-Justin
Good post.
Used cars change things of course but what you said still applies. 3 separate deals, price, trade in and financing.
Remember the dealer can make money on financing using your bank. Allowing them to finance may get you a better "out the door" price. But as stated, financing is it's own deal.

justin.b

12th April 2008, 12:19

I'm not trying to paly games with the dealer, but the trade and financing are legitimately not decided at the start for me. I can go either way depending on the deal offered.

Of course, I also don't run the salesman through all these hoops unless I am ready to buy. If I am still in shopping mode, I will break off talks after I have the information I need about the car itself. I find no pleasure in wasting the guy's time and possibly costing him a sale to someone else because I made him lay out terms that I am not ready to accept that day - no matter now good they may be.

-Justin

Greg 713

12th April 2008, 12:40

knickerbockers

12th April 2008, 12:49

rx8rotary

12th April 2008, 14:54

This thread is really going nowhere but let me add one more useless thing to the mix

I owe a car salesman absolutely nothing. He is trying to earn my business. I will give him respect but I will not cater to him. There are tons of places to buy a car so I don't have to buy it at one particular place. If at any moment during negotiating the deal I feel uncomfortable I leave - I don't owe him an explanation why and I don't owe him my business just because he has spent some time working with me. Again, he has to EARN my business. If he earns it, he gets it - if he doesn't, I go elsewhere.

BOB

jebinc

12th April 2008, 19:26

Myah's Daddy

13th April 2008, 00:02

So scolazz I am confused here not a surprise, but is thedriving the guy you are trying to buy a car from or is he just an idot?

Brad

thedriving

13th April 2008, 03:29

jambo101

13th April 2008, 05:49

Southernbychoice

13th April 2008, 08:40

[QUOTE=thedriving]If you disrespect me I'll make sure you lose somehow. I am much better than you at this game. I have played it SO many more times than you.

QUOTE]

Sounds like something a gang banger would say. Nice attitude. And you're being critical about this forum losing it's decorum?

justin.b

13th April 2008, 09:00

Grrrr. You know you aren't ready to do business. Why not wait until you Are ready? This man cost me money. But if I went into his office and wasted his time and cost him money because I wasn't ready to do business for at least 6 months I'd be a prick.

No, you wouldn't be.

There are a lot of people in a lot of businesses who's sale process IS months long before closing the deal. How long do people shop for houses? The rest of the business world has no problem quoting prices and terms, knowing they will be shopped against the pricing and terms of their competitors.

Personally, I don't care if you consider me a timewaster. My visits to dealerships are part of my buying process. I don't look at cars I wouldn't buy and I don't drag into negotiations when I'm not willing to buy that day. I'll probably test drive three or four different cars at three or four different dealerships. Then I'll go back to the dealership with the car I want and talk about the numbers (with the same salesman who did the test drive). Once I have the numbers, I'll leave. If I decide they're good, I'll come back and buy.

The end total time involved for the salesman I buy from is the same as if I had done the process all at once - with the second and last visits scheduled.

Sure, I don't buy from the other salesmen I have looked at cars with - but I also don't run them through the negotiating process, just a test drive at most. I don't feel guilty for that and will not apologize for it. I look at the car with every possibility that it may be the one I buy, and the car either shines or rules itself out.

If there is a problem with that, maybe dealerships should arrange for a designated test drive guy who can discuss the technical aspects and features of the car without having to worry about missing out on foot traffic. My guess is that the salesmen would oppose the addition of such an employee to the staff.

-Justin

LWW

13th April 2008, 09:03

Do you think he's pulling my leg? Any of the salesmen on here feel free to chime in, I'd like to get your perspectives, too.
I don't.

If I was going to require a deposit I would have required it before I had the vehicle shuttled over.

Believe it or not there are people who cruise certain lots looking for "THE" car, and often never stop unless they see a good candidate, and are willing to snap it up the second it becomes available if found. Even if the other dealer had it on another lot for a year, it is still new merchandise on the new lot the moment it arrives.

Believe it or not, if you don't buy this car they will not send it to the crusher ... they'll sell it to someone else.

Believe it or not their are other people in the market for a like vehicle at the same time you are.

If you don't like the car or the figures then certainly don't buy it ... but developing the common "EVERYTHING IS A SCAM!" mentality does nothing but poison your own life outlook.

One of the great joys during my days of selling was when someone came back who had the "EVERYTHING IS A SCAM!" mentality and the car was gone.

It almost always ended up with the idea that we sold it out from under them as part of a scam ... but to them "EVERYTHING IS A SCAM!" so the only proper thing to do was pity them.

LWW

LWW

13th April 2008, 09:04

Interesting perspective. Your comment implies that the customer must really care about how much a salesman is making. Which is where I totally disagree. The dealer's job is to screw people out of their money. They're not there to be nice, they're not there to make you feel good about yourself. Unless, of course it's your relative or friend which is a rare occurrence. They're there to squeeze you dry and given opportunity, they will do it each and every time because it means more money for them. So why should the OP as a customer care about them?

I say play your games, go to other dealers and only commit when you realize that this is what you want at the price you want to pay. And don't be afraid to screw with the dealer. They will still make their money off of you one way or the other. Of course my personal preference is to have a tad more money in my own pocket and not the dealer's.
And being a selfish snob only encourages others to be a selfish snob.

LWW

LWW

13th April 2008, 09:44

But you would be surprised how many know exactly what they are looking for but they are sooo driven by fear they are afraid to even tell you what they want. As if somehow you give them this most basic information you will somehow get over on them.
Stop giving away trade secrets or I will have your secret credit decoder ring repossessed!

One of the best ways to screw people is to make sure they go home driving exactly what they want! That'll teach them! BWAHAHAHAHAHA....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the gist of your post was actually a question? Why do so many people when they car shop:
1 - Complain to anyone who will listen about how much they despise playing games.
2 - Insist upon playing games for hours on end to extend a 60 minute pricing/paperwork transaction into all day or days, and sometimes weeks or months.
3 - Spend $100.00 or more in gasoline trying to beat the other 17 dealers price by $50,00.
4 - Complain to anyone who will listen about how many games were played.

If that was your question ... I have never understood it. You can't always be the highest price unless you are happy selling the least ... and anyone who has actually been in the business realizes that this is the fast track to personal/financial bankruptcy.

OTOH, I was seldom the lowest price either. I positioned myself as something worth paying extra for in the deal. Not everyone agreed with that. A lot did. They often could have beat my price in absolute dollars ... and often knew it ... but didn't.

Some would commit the most rude and deceptive acts to save a buck. Some I've seen who would do the same to sell a car. Neither is right, and my philosophy was that tomorrow I would be lucky enough to wake up and be me while they were cursed with having to wake up and be them.

As to my personal philosophy ... price is certainly important, but it's not everything by a long stretch. If I want a 12 oz bag of peanuts I'd much rather pay $1.00 and go for a walk in the park and enjoy my peanuts than pay $0.99 yet feel I needed to bring my kitchen scales along to make sure all 12 ozs of peanute were there.

LWW

LWW

13th April 2008, 09:57

It is an game, after all, and a highly adversarial one at that. At stake is a sum of money. Your job, if you are serving the dealership you work for, is to get as much of it as you can from the customer.
This is the biggest misconception in the industry.

Salespeople who have the highest average profit usually make the least TOTAL money!

Why?

Because they sell at volume approaching zero, and every pay plan I have ever seen has mucho serious incentives for volume.

No, salespeople who must ALWAYS have the lowest price make the second least!

Why?

Because they lack people skills and people buy people not prices in most cases. The always lowest price person has 90%+ of the people he/she talks to take their product knowledge, time, and price and goes down the road to spend $100 in gas trying to beat it by $50 and eventually buys when/wherever they get tired of shopping.

The person who makes the second most is the rep who has the skills to discern who is serious, who is confused, who is iffy, and who is waiting for the 7:45 showing of "ROCKY XX" at the theater up the street ... and then spending the amount of time that the current traffic and this prospect's interests dictate.

That person will extract a higher number of sales from the same number of prospects than either of the first 2 types at an average profit somewhere between everything and nothing ... and clean up on bonus.

The person who makes the most is the person who follows the latter plan and sticks with it at one good store building up a client base.

LWW

LWW

13th April 2008, 10:11

You know what you’ve paid for car and how much room you have to negotiate, but the customer doesn’t. You (the dealership) will never lose money on a deal, whereas the sky’s the limit on how much profit you can glean from the customer. You, by your own admission, will allow personalities to determine how you will treat the customer.
This also is completely wrong.

Here's why.

1 - As GSM I allowed no sales rep to have decision making power over what was and wasn't a deal. How much is made is only a part of the equation. Were they buying a unit on the lot for 3 days or 300 days? Was it in short or long supply? Was there a trade or not? Was it a repeat customer or not? Were they a regular service customer or not? Had they ever sent us a friend or relative as a customer? Are they financing in house? Did they give us a good CSI report last time, or did we do everything reasonable to make them happy and they burnt us for sad*stic reasons? Is the store close to a volume bonus on a particular model? Is my sales rep in a slump ... I often took very short deals to helps a good rep get their confidence back? Was I close to a volume bonus?

2 - I often sold a car at a net loss. D'UH! If I have a new 2007 on the lot, what insanity would make me think I could sell it for more when it was 19 mths old than 18 mths old? If I have a used car which has been here 60 days and is depreciating, what insanity would make me think it's worth more in another month? Losses are enver good ... but lost opportunity cost is even worse.

3 - Personality DOES dictate how people act and react. Deal with it. If you doubt that, next time you see a LEO walk and ask "WHASSUP HAWGJAW?" and tell me how that works out.

I don't and have never advocated that a sales rep give a customer anything less than they are entitled to ... but I also do not condone the idea that because you are a "PROSPECTIVE CUSTOMER" gives you a magical right to violate society's rules for decent behavior.

LWW

scolazz

13th April 2008, 10:27

I don't.

If I was going to require a deposit I would have required it before I had the vehicle shuttled over.

Believe it or not there are people who cruise certain lots looking for "THE" car, and often never stop unless they see a good candidate, and are willing to snap it up the second it becomes available if found. Even if the other dealer had it on another lot for a year, it is still new merchandise on the new lot the moment it arrives.

Believe it or not, if you don't buy this car they will not send it to the crusher ... they'll sell it to someone else.

Believe it or not their are other people in the market for a like vehicle at the same time you are.

If you don't like the car or the figures then certainly don't buy it ... but developing the common "EVERYTHING IS A SCAM!" mentality does nothing but poison your own life outlook.

One of the great joys during my days of selling was when someone came back who had the "EVERYTHING IS A SCAM!" mentality and the car was gone.

It almost always ended up with the idea that we sold it out from under them as part of a scam ... but to them "EVERYTHING IS A SCAM!" so the only proper thing to do was pity them.

LWW

LWW

Thanks for the input. Some misconceptions here:

I never asked for it to be shuttled over. The website had it listed at the local dealer - it wasn't. I email him (he's the internet sales guy) and asked when i could come look at it. He said it wasn't there, but he'd have it shuttled over. I never asked for that, he just did it. I was willing to take the drive to look at it over at the other lot.

He then called me back, and said others were coming over to look at it that afternoon. Great, it gets sold, no skin off my back - other fish in the ocean. Turns out the car wouldn't be there until the next day, so I am inclined to believe he was pulling my leg. No problem there, either, I understand it's part of the process. I was just posting to see how common this was.

At no time during our conversations, both online and on the phone, did he let me know that the car has not gone through their conditining process, or that it had mechanical problems. Regardless of the fact that they will fix them before delivery, its a bit jarring to get into a car, and notice mechanical problems without being told upfront. If he had just told me that the car needed some small amount of work, and hasn't been reconditioned yet, I would have been OK with that. By not telling me that upfront, it makes me feel like they are hiding something from me.

Communication is the key here. Just be upfront with me, tell me the details, and we can work through them.

Gary J Fischman

13th April 2008, 10:33

Lots of personal attacks in this thread had to be deleted. Keep it respectful or the thread will have to be locked.

Personal attacks are not acceptable on this forum and are grounds for banning.

wales

13th April 2008, 14:10

thedriving

13th April 2008, 15:12

justin.b

13th April 2008, 15:24

You still have not addressed why you think a customer owes you all their information up-front when you will not disclose yours.

All I want is your best price on the car. You can bet that someone selling your same line of cars will quote that to me over the internet. Actually, you can probably bet that someone already has if I'm sitting in your dealership talking numbers. I'm not saying you have to beat it or else - a few hundred dollars over the term of ownership is not that big a deal if you treat me fairly and your dealership is more convenient or has longer service hours / loaner cars / good coffe while I wait or your dealership also carries other lines I may be interested in in the future.

At my first interation with a salesman, all I'm really interested in is price. If we get to this point of discussion I have already made my mind up on the car.

-Justin

Gord96BRG

13th April 2008, 15:34

lets say I only have $3k of profit in the car you're looking at and my dealership has a policy that we won't sell any used car for less than $1,500 profit. I can only discount the car $1,500 to help you out with the negative equity.
What you don't know is that I have another car identical to the one you're buying that we own for less. If you had been honest and fair with me I would be willing to sell you the car that we own for less money and still make my $1,500.
That's what I mean when I say I know the game better than you. If you had been professional with me I could have saved you money and made the same amout of profit.
Apologies, but from what you've posted about your side of the game, I somehow doubt that you'd happily forego a $1K additional profit if it was available to you - I'd be more inclined to believe that even if I'm nice, honest, and open with you, you'd still steer me towards the identical car that you own for less, and you'd happily pocket the additional profit without ever mentioning to me that it would be possible to sell it to me for less. I don't expect you to run a charity and say "I'm happy to only make $1500 profit and give you a better deal, even though you'd be happy paying the same money for this other car and I could make $2500 profit." Or are you seriously suggesting that you routinely give away $1000 to buyers who are nice to you?

Then there are the people who don't even really read the things I say...they are angry little monkeys flinging poo.
Have I once on here called anybody names?
Nope.
Hilarious. Did YOU even read what you'd just written in the line above, before claiming to have never called anybody names? You wouldn't consider "they are angry little monkeys flinging poo" as calling names, then? Personally - I'd have to disagree there, if someone said I was an angry little monkey flinging poo I'd certainly consider myself to have been called names.

2 things: first, I didn't invent the process.
Speaking of the process - tell us, if a buyer has been up front, honest, and fair with you - do you say to them "you really don't want to go into the finance office, and whatever you do, do NOT agree to the first interest rate they offer you, and for god's sake do NOT buy the Protection Package for the paint and interior, and whatever you do, do NOT pay more than 50% of what they ask for the Extended Warranty". Or is that just part of the process, part of the game, and it's the buyers fault if they fall for any of those scams? (or, please tell us how the typical Protection Package isn't really a scam?)

To those that think I'm your classic douchebag, sleazy car salesman? You clearly are not intelligent enough to read the written word, process it and assimilate the information. I wonder how you still have all your fingers? Wouldn't you have at some point said "whut does this thing do..Oww mah fingurs!"
Here again, from the same post where you claimed to have never called anyone names - I suppose saying "you clearly are not intelligent enough to read the written word", followed by mocking them, might not be considered name calling - but it certainly is insulting. Perhaps YOU might want to reconsider your claim to have never called anyone names? I think the evidence clearly shows otherwise... it's credibility on the line time!

scolazz

13th April 2008, 16:46

To Scolazz: I understand your frustration. The problem is, the sales person may not have known the condition of the car. In all likelihood he said to the manager "I've got a guy that wants to look at that car" and the manager said "it's at the other lot. We'll have it here tomorrow. We've got another guy that wants to look at it, you might want to get a deposit" Seems reasonable and likely to me.

I understand the point you are trying to make here. My point is: I'm looking for the salesman to add value to this transaction - by knowing (or finding out before I drive out) the condition of the car, thats one of the place where he can add value. As a consumer, I don't care what is going on behind the scenes at the dealer - I only car that the car I went to look at needed work, and I wasn't told ahead of time.

I still haven't discounted the car out, but the salesguy may be making my mind up for me. I sent him a quick thank-you note when I got back on Friday, thanking him for his time, and reminding him that I'd like to hear back when they get the work done. A good salesguy would have responded to me with a simple 'no problem, will do' email or call. I've gotten neither, making me believe they don't particularly care to make this sale to me. Granted, I didn't put a deposit down, but I did let them know I would should the situation change on their end.

knickerbockers

13th April 2008, 17:58

A couple things I'd like to point out regarding thedriving:

Have I once on here called anybody names?
Nope.
...
You clearly are not intelligent enough to read the written word, process it and assimilate the information. I wonder how you still have all your fingers? Wouldn't you have at some point said "whut does this thing do..Oww mah fingurs!"

Additionally:
Grrrr. You know you aren't ready to do business. Why not wait until you Are ready? This man cost me money. But if I went into his office and wasted his time and cost him money because I wasn't ready to do business for at least 6 months I'd be a prick.
There's this shoe store at a mall in my town. It's a place called Runabout Sports. When you go in there, you have a sales guy who comes up, and then spend usually a long time picking out a pair of shoes. The last few times I was there I tried on probably a total of 15 pairs of shoes. Each pair of shoes was presented by the knowledgeable sales guy, and by watching me walk and looking at my feet he got a feel for my tendency to over-pronate when running as well as my arches. Knowing this, he brought out a lot of shoes which I tried on and ran in.
It's an extremely pleasant buying experience, and I walked out with a pair of shoes.
I don't think I'll ever buy shoes elsewhere. Everyone else I know who buys shoes often for running goes there. If someone asks me, I tell them that it's a great place.

The point? Just by helping customers out for yes, sometimes even upwards of an hour, they get tons of repeat customers and satisfaction, as well as positive word-of-mouth. I don't mind forking over a little extra because it's a great place.

thedriving

13th April 2008, 18:13

RawRats

13th April 2008, 22:37

I was starting to feel like I was in a Kung FU flick where the hero is fighting 20 guys at once.Pretty funny. He actually thinks he's the hero here.

To put it into terms that an English major can understand, it's more like Grendel fighting 20 Thanes at once. The Thanes suffer greatly, of course, but one smart (lucky?) cookie gets his licks in and Grendel pays the utimate price. Grendel's Mom (GSM?) steps in and dispatches the naughty Thanes (most of them anyway). In the end, Mom (GSM?) is still on the job and her minions (salepersons?), and those who oppose them (customers?) are the ultimate losers (at least in the movie version).

thedriving

13th April 2008, 23:33

Gord makes a long post here, I want to respond to a few things but I'm going to cut out the bits that I don't find relevant.

POINT ONE:Apologies, but from what you've posted about your side of the game, I somehow doubt that you'd happily forego a $1K additional profit if it was available to you -

POINT TWO Hilarious. Did YOU even read what you'd just written in the line above, before claiming to have never called anybody names? You wouldn't consider "they are angry little monkeys flinging poo" as calling names, then? Personally - I'd have to disagree there, if someone said I was an angry little monkey flinging poo I'd certainly consider myself to have been called names.

POINT THREE Speaking of the process - tell us, if a buyer has been up front, honest, and fair with you - do you say to them "you really don't want to go into the finance office, and whatever you do, do NOT agree to the first interest rate they offer you, and for god's sake do NOT buy the Protection Package for the paint and interior, and whatever you do, do NOT pay more than 50% of what they ask for the Extended Warranty". Or is that just part of the process, part of the game, and it's the buyers fault if they fall for any of those scams? (or, please tell us how the typical Protection Package isn't really a scam?)

POINT FOUR Here again, from the same post where you claimed to have never called anyone names - I suppose saying "you clearly are not intelligent enough to read the written word", followed by mocking them, might not be considered name calling - but it certainly is insulting. Perhaps YOU might want to reconsider your claim to have never called anyone names? I think the evidence clearly shows otherwise... it's credibility on the line time!

OK
1. the point I was making there is that we may have a car that has similar equipment and miles that we can sell to you for less. When we are on the lot? I have no idea what we own each car for. If I know we can make more profit on one car or the other I will steer you there first. My point, which you MISSED was I can sometimes switch cars and save you money, but if you have been a douche to me , why would I?
2.first, who did I call an angry little monkey? Name the names...what? nobody? I didn't call a single person that?
Second, it's a metaphor. See, you have a monkey and he gets scared, so he screeches and flings poo.
It's a metaphor, the poo is the name they throw. I'll break it down for you more. I say: "it's a game, here are the rules, I'm trying to help you." The angry little monkey doesn't like that. But instead of flinging poo he flings at me "something malevolent that came out of your mother ass." So in this instance you are on the side of the guy who said that to me?
Interesting position.
You're with the "something malevolent out of your mothers ass" guy?
3.Umm missing the point again? I didn't invent the process. You tell me, what is a more user friendly way to do this? You don't like the 4 square, you don't like the finance department? So how do we do this then? Re-invent the wheel for me, PLEASE.
I tell people all the time to not buy their crap.I make NOTHING on you buying a warranty. So if you are buying a new car? I tell you DON'T buy the warranty. I sell Toyota's. The only time I advise you to buy a warranty is if you keep the car for decades. Otherwise save your cash. I actually butt heads with my finance department all the time. They don't pay me to sell warranty so I advise my customer to not buy it. What is funny is this has NOTHING to do with what we have been talking about. You are one of the guys who hates the process so you want to take it out on me.
4. so you admit I didn't call anybody names, I only insulted them... so somehow that means I called them names?
What the hell? You say "the evidence clearly shows otherwise"....but by your own admission I DIDN'T call anybody names.
"Credibility on the line time?"
Ummm...since you said yourself I never actually called anybody any names? I would say...credibility intact

I'm still waiting for all the people who called me a liar and a douchbag and...well the rest of that crap...to actually come here and intelligently tell me how I am wrong.
Again, I tried to give people information that could help them buy a car and not lose money...but somehow I am the bad guy... It's sad really. I didn't realize the overwhelming fear ran so deep in this country.

thedriving

14th April 2008, 00:03

thedriving

14th April 2008, 00:10

A couple things I'd like to point out regarding thedriving:

Additionally:

There's this shoe store at a mall in my town. It's a place called Runabout Sports. When you go in there, you have a sales guy who comes up, and then spend usually a long time picking out a pair of shoes. The last few times I was there I tried on probably a total of 15 pairs of shoes. Each pair of shoes was presented by the knowledgeable sales guy, and by watching me walk and looking at my feet he got a feel for my tendency to over-pronate when running as well as my arches. Knowing this, he brought out a lot of shoes which I tried on and ran in.
It's an extremely pleasant buying experience, and I walked out with a pair of shoes.
I don't think I'll ever buy shoes elsewhere. Everyone else I know who buys shoes often for running goes there. If someone asks me, I tell them that it's a great place.

The point? Just by helping customers out for yes, sometimes even upwards of an hour, they get tons of repeat customers and satisfaction, as well as positive word-of-mouth. I don't mind forking over a little extra because it's a great place.
so..you were ready to buy shoes...he helped you find the shoes and you bought them?
That works for me.
now if you had spent several hours with the guy and then said "I'm going to buy shoes in 6 months" we would be talking about the same thing. Why look at shoes now when you need them in 6 months?
Somebody else said some crap about real estate agents.
So if I go in and talk to my real estate agent and I have her show me 3 houses and take up 3 hours of her time and then I tell her.."Oh, I'm going to buy a house in 6 months" So why the hell am I looking at houses now?

Gord96BRG

14th April 2008, 00:34

Gord makes a long post here, I want to respond to a few things but I'm going to cut out the bits that I don't find relevant.

OK
1. the point I was making there is that we may have a car that has similar equipment and miles that we can sell to you for less. When we are on the lot? I have no idea what we own each car for. If I know we can make more profit on one car or the other I will steer you there first. My point, which you MISSED was I can sometimes switch cars and save you money, but if you have been a douche to me , why would I?
2.first, who did I call an angry little monkey? Name the names...what? nobody? I didn't call a single person that?
Second, it's a metaphor. See, you have a monkey and he gets scared, so he screeches and flings poo.
It's a metaphor, the poo is the name they throw. I'll break it down for you more. I say: "it's a game, here are the rules, I'm trying to help you." The angry little monkey doesn't like that. But instead of flinging poo he flings at me "something malevolent that came out of your mother ass." So in this instance you are on the side of the guy who said that to me?
Interesting position.
You're with the "something malevolent out of your mothers ass" guy?
3.Umm missing the point again? I didn't invent the process. You tell me, what is a more user friendly way to do this? You don't like the 4 square, you don't like the finance department? So how do we do this then? Re-invent the wheel for me, PLEASE.
I tell people all the time to not buy their crap.I make NOTHING on you buying a warranty. So if you are buying a new car? I tell you DON'T buy the warranty. I sell Toyota's. The only time I advise you to buy a warranty is if you keep the car for decades. Otherwise save your cash. I actually butt heads with my finance department all the time. They don't pay me to sell warranty so I advise my customer to not buy it. What is funny is this has NOTHING to do with what we have been talking about. You are one of the guys who hates the process so you want to take it out on me.
4. so you admit I didn't call anybody names, I only insulted them... so somehow that means I called them names?
What the hell? You say "the evidence clearly shows otherwise"....but by your own admission I DIDN'T call anybody names.
"Credibility on the line time?"
Ummm...since you said yourself I never actually called anybody any names? I would say...credibility intact

I'm still waiting for all the people who called me a liar and a douchbag and...well the rest of that crap...to actually come here and intelligently tell me how I am wrong.
Again, I tried to give people information that could help them buy a car and not lose money...but somehow I am the bad guy... It's sad really. I didn't realize the overwhelming fear ran so deep in this country.
Wow. For someone who claimed in post #67 to approach this discussion in classic collegiate style debate, and to use logic to rebut points, I have to say (as a collegiate debate judge) that you are extraordinarily bad at debating. ;)

1. I didn't miss any point. In your reply above, you claim that you "have no idea what we own each car for", yet one line later you claim that you "can sometimes switch cars and save you money". Which is it? My point, which you missed, is that I doubt that you routinely give away $1K profit to people just because they're nice to you, as you originally claimed.

2. How incredibly condescending. You must know, of course, that you lose major debate points for that style. OK, your point was addressed to "the peopple who don't even really read the things I say" - obviously you must have felt those people were participating in this thread, since you felt it necessary to insult them to make your point. Unless you feel that "calling anybody names" requires your insult to be directed to a specific person (which it does not), then you most certainly committed the offense against a group of people participating in this thread. You used a broad brush, but you used it nonetheless.

Further - I certainly took NO sides. Please go back and re-read my post. My note was that you were, in fact, calling people names. I said absolutely NOTHING in support of anybody who may have called you names. It is, frankly, a ridiculous leap of illogic to conclude that I am on the side of anybody who insulted you, simply because I pointed out that you were guilty of the offense yourself.

3. Yes, you did miss the point again. On one example, when your boss orders you to lie to your customers ("he told me to call a customer and say another buyer was interested in that car and to ask for a deposit"), you justified it as just doing what you were told - despite claiming that you never lied to your customers. I was asking you to clarify your position on the finance department's usual extra-profit deals. You actually clarified that quite well, when you said that you tell people all the time to not buy the crap. I certainly was NOT taking it out on you, so please don't be so paranoid and read attacks where none exist.

However, for further clarification since you asked how to re-invent the wheel - you brought up the counter-example of going to a clothing store to buy a suit, and it's quite a poor example by comparison. The retail price is listed, up front, and a better deal is typically not available to a customer who happens to be a better negotiator. The store might suggest you want a shirt and tie to go with the suit, but they will NOT have a 300% markup on the shirt and tie for one person, and a 50% markup on the shirt and tie for the next person, depending on if the salesman liked that person or if the person knew enough to negotiate a discount.

How to re-invent so that you don't make enemies of every customer who comes out of the finance office feeling abused and dirty? Lose the extra-profit add-ons. Lose the "Protection Package"s completely, they are a 100% rip-off. Charge a fair, consistent price for the extended warranties - same price for every customer. Easy, it just requires some integrity and honesty from the dealers up front. Also please note, the above was not an attack on you...

4. I certainly did not admit you didn't call anybody names - I suggested for that one particular quoted sentence, it could be considered name calling, or some might consider it to be merely insulting (Again, you won't win many debates with illogical conclusions like that!). The point, however, was that between your monkeys and your 'clearly not intelligent enough", you certainly were insulting AND calling names at various points throughout this discussion - so your holier than thou, "how come everyone is attacking me when I'm not doing anything?" approach is not very credible. Thus, "it's credibility on the line time". If you wish to be taken seriously, you have to actually walk the walk, not throw out insults and name calling and then stake a position that pretends otherwise.

To your conclusion - I'm sorry, but most of the people taking exception to your really took offense to your statement that you'd make a customer pay extra if you didn't like the way they spoke to you - that's not a "somehow I'm the bad guy", that's people reacting to that arrogance and the implicit confirmation that buying a car is a distasteful process. No overwhelming fear for me either, I have great relationships with the salesmen who get my business. Perhaps, as others have tried to point out to you repeatedly, you might reconsider that statement and just how bad it makes you appear - that's why you're getting attacked, not because people are scared. You really give people very little credit here, and assume you have the answers, but you have honestly missed why you're getting this reaction.

84im

14th April 2008, 02:08

jjjetta

14th April 2008, 10:59

If you were going to buy on Monday, putting a deposit down on Friday wasn't that big an ask - especially since it seems like he wasn't jerking you around about the demand for that car.

I'd have to say that this one's on you.

-Justin

Oh, I agree. I am saying that it depends on your relationship with the seller. I have known this guy for years, on a professional basis, but as soon as he asked, all my stereotypes of used car guys flooded my brain. My bad. Its obviously, like everything else in life, all down to a case-by-case basis. Generalizations bad, going with your gut, good.

RawRats

14th April 2008, 11:43

If you were going to buy on Monday, putting a deposit down on Friday wasn't that big an ask - especially since it seems like he wasn't jerking you around about the demand for that car.

I'd have to say that this one's on you.

-JustinThe problem here is that the customer is lied to so much by the car salespersons that it difficult to know when they are telling the truth. Honest and trustworthy are attributes not usually associated with them. While there are many who do possess those attributes, they are found guilty by association with the other 95% who don't.

Greg 713

14th April 2008, 12:21

LWW

14th April 2008, 12:27

I suspect that is part of what makes the traditional car buyer process so frustrating for consumers--the customer is not dealing directly with the decision maker as the counterparty. And the salesman, in his defense, probably has no idea what flexibility the GSM really has.
I'm going to give a multipart answer to that.

1 - Either yes they are, or no they aren't by choice. I would allow any sales rep to sell all of the cars they wanted at MSRP. Most people prefer that they enter into a negotiation process ... this opens a more complicated process than going to Lowes and buying a board.

2 - The "YEAH BUT THE DEALER SUCKS!" position is extremely well represented in the media and on forums. If someone receives an aberrant description of what is going on from enough people without a counterweight then it becomes believed and expected.

3 - The NADA, for reasons I will never comprehend, has NEVER put forth a media PR campaign as a counterweight to the "YEAH BUT THE DEALER SUCKS!" crowd.

4 - On internet forums it is nearly impossible to get a message out there that represents reality. This forum is a microcosm of how difficult that is. It is almost never that I post in a topic where at least two people who have never retailed their first car will flame the thread because somehow they "KNOW" the "REAL TRUTH" in spite of the fact I have never attempted to sell the first car here.

5 - To be an effective SM or GSM requires a skillset and amount of hours that the public is not willing to pay for. The truth be known, in MANY showrooms the average customer has more experience than anyone in the bottom half of the seniority list for the sales force.

6 - The average consumer lives in an economic fantasy land when it comes to the car business. I'll grant you that it's used to vicious effect by certain dealers ... but they wouldn't do it if people didn't react better to it than truth. How many people would believe that shopping at Krogers would make me skinny no matter how much I eat ... with no catch? Yet people will run to an ad for "WE'LL PAY OFF YOUR TRADE NO MATTER WHAT YOU OWE!" How many people believe that Best Buy sells a $2,000.00 plasma TV and only makes $1.00? But show them $1.00 over invoice on a $20,000.00 car and they are ecstatic. Explain to them that after hold back, volume incentive, finance income, floorplan, floorplan credits, rent, lights phone, commission, labor, materials, advertising, advertising credits, lot damage, cost of sales, goodwill, bonuses, taxes, insurance, benefits, and etcetera my average gross profit was $2,200.00 and my average net was about $350.00 and that came to +/- invoice plus $1.00 ... well, some people can deal with reality and some can't.

LWW

LWW

14th April 2008, 12:32

The problem here is that the customer is lied to so much by the car salespersons that it difficult to know when they are telling the truth. Honest and trustworthy are attributes not usually associated with them. While there are many who do possess those attributes, they are found guilty by association with the other 95% who don't.
And in many cases this is the exact truth.

The flip side is that the amount of BS the average salesperson puts up with ruins a lot of people.

I've watched it go down.

I could do a thread which would take weeks to write on the lies that I have been told straight faced by what most people would assume to be reputable citizens.

If as a customer you meet a sales rep who is a horse's arse you have the option of ditching them. If the role's are reversed the sales rep does not have that option unless they are very secure in their position.

LWW

Greg 713

14th April 2008, 12:42

3 - The NADA, for reasons I will never comprehend, has NEVER put forth a media PR campaign as a counterweight to the "YEAH BUT THE DEALER SUCKS!" crowd.
Do you think it is a "winnable war" or do you think the NADA knows not to enter a battle you have no chance of winning? btw-I think it could be done but it would be a long campaign with little gains in the first 16 months. It would take a 36 month commitment to start to see changes in focus group reactions. Attitudes (right or wrong) run deep on this subject.

5 - ....The truth be known, in MANY showrooms the average customer has more experience than anyone in the bottom half of the seniority list for the sales force.
LWW
Say it aint' so! That is scary.
I am glad the sales people who call on me have 15-20 years of sales experience.

LWW

14th April 2008, 12:44

All I want is your best price on the car. You can bet that someone selling your same line of cars will quote that to me over the internet. Actually, you can probably bet that someone already has if I'm sitting in your dealership talking numbers. I'm not saying you have to beat it or else - a few hundred dollars over the term of ownership is not that big a deal if you treat me fairly and your dealership is more convenient or has longer service hours / loaner cars / good coffe while I wait or your dealership also carries other lines I may be interested in in the future.

At my first interation with a salesman, all I'm really interested in is price. If we get to this point of discussion I have already made my mind up on the car.

-Justin
Not a bad post.

As to the quoting on the web however, I guarantee you that you do not have the lowest price.

The other thing I would change is that by the time I got to the dealer I would have a pretty good idea that this is who I wanted to do business and it would be their's to lose.

That's not to say I wouldn't want it as cheap as I could ... but if it cost me $200.00 to not have to deal with someone I know will likely be a PITA I really don't care.

LWW

scolazz

14th April 2008, 12:44

The flip side is that the amount of BS the average salesperson puts up with ruins a lot of people.

I was just having this discussion with a co-worker this morning. Its a two-sided coin - sales people get jaded because of the large amount of crap they put up with from consumers, while the consumers get jaded with the large amounts of BS they put up with from sales guys. So, bitter consumer comes in, eventually 'infecting' the sales guy (who may have been a good guy to begin with), and then this newly bitter sales guy infects a new consumer, causing him to become bitter. Its a cycle, and we are far, far down the path, so now expectations are set (on both sides of the fence) that the other guy is out to screw you.

Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, if I got my point across above.

LWW

14th April 2008, 13:16

Do you think it is a "winnable war" or do you think the NADA knows not to enter a battle you have no chance of winning? btw-I think it could be done but it would be a long campaign with little gains in the first 16 months. It would take a 36 month commitment to start to see changes in focus group reactions. Attitudes (right or wrong) run deep on this subject.
I was a bit hyperbolic when I said I had no idea of why the NADA had never done this ... and the answer is ugly and a lot of the "YEAH BUT THE DEALER SUCKS!" crowd love to flame, but I'll explain.

1 - The reason is that the mfrs have the local markets saturated with dealers all divided into little fiefdoms to the point that you can't get 3 metro dealers of the same brand in the same room without the 2 smallest trying to figure out how to undermine the biggest who is trying to figure out how to smash them while they try to figure out how to come out better on the deal than the other small one. Being an NADA Academy grad I can also tell you that their budget largely goes to combat ridiculous legislative proposals. Remember, only the best of the bad ideas usually become new law after 232 years of new law. The worst of the new ideas are terrifying.

2 - I have no doubt that it is a winnable war. I've done it in a local market. It's not easy. Yes, views do run deep on this. It also requires fairness and honesty. One role that I held in the past was sitting on the OADA/OAG dealer advertising review panel.

It was ran as a step between the local consumer and the Ohio atty general. Dealer advertising complaints in our metro area were referred to me as well as I would peruse the morning print ads. I have attended several seminars by OADA and the OAG on consumer law and I also had pro bono OADA legal people who could answer any legal fine point that I might have.

Once I even sent a cease and desist letter to my own store on fine point that I had believed the consumer was wrong but was in fact correct. My belief had been that if you have ONE of something you must disclose that in the add. In fact the law says you had to disclose that you had ONE and the stock number. Since I was sending a letter I felt it fair to send myself one also as I had been been guilty of the same sin ... although without complaint.

Although the office held no legal authority, the then OADA/OAG guidelines were that a second warning threaten an OAG referral. A subsequent offense was viewed by the OAG as de facto reason for an investigation.

I also had the power to send a referral on a 1st or 2nd offense for a "blatant and intentional" offense, but I never actually saw one of those.

Most of the complaints honestly revolved around things like a sale that ended at 9:00 Weds and the consumer was mad they couldn't get there until Thurs AM, or people who didn't see the disclaimer so I had to check type sizes and proximity placement to make sure they were within ORC spec.

Now, to tie that all together. There were 3 of us. 1 GM dealer, myself, 1 Chrysler dealer (Local plant at the time), and 1 Honda dealer. (Fairly local plant and so the import dealers couldn't say the domestic dealers were picking on them.)

It was disbanded after 2 years because the Ford dealers were convinced they were being persecuted by the GM/Chrysler represenatation while the Toyota, Subaru, Volvo, BMW, Nissan, Suzuki, Daewoo, Kia, Hyundai dealers all swore the Honda dealers had an unfair edge.

It saved taxpayer money and OAG time. It policed problems. It even got dealers to turn in other dealers ... often the real complaint was that the ad worked better than theirs.

IF the NADA ever actually became an organized monolithic group they could make the mfrs cater to them. It would probably be one of the best things that could ever happen to the industry.

LWW

LWW

14th April 2008, 13:48

Say it aint' so! That is scary.
I am glad the sales people who call on me have 15-20 years of sales experience.
Most 15 - 20 year veterans of the business fall into one of two groups:

1 - They will work at an average of two dealers a year. Makes a decent living. When the problems start to seep out from under the carpet they move on.

2 - The type who work as hard as they want when they want and will very seldom see it as worth their time to walk across the lot to talk with someone who has a less than 1:5 chance of being an actual customer.

I don't want to sound harsh, but that's about how I was after 6 years selling. I had a large enough customer base that my repeat and referral business would put me at or near the top every month in volume with an above average average commission.

If I had 3 hours to kill in the afternoon I'd much rather grab the company tix and go to a businessman's special with a client and never discuss a ding-diddly-arned car than spend it with a complete unknown.

There are transactional sales and there are relationship sales Transactional sales leave you always hungry for your next meal. Relationship sales let you get as fat as you want to be.

On the low end of the seniority, well in many stores if you have a sales force of 10 you might have 3 who have been their more than a year.

Ask any dealership SM if these numbers don't break down about right for sales volume and earnings on an 10 person staff selling 90 monthly:

#1 - 18/$8.5K
#2 - 15/$6.0K
#3 - 15/$6.0K
#4 - 10/$3.8K
#5 - 8/$3.3K
#6 - 7/$2.1K
#7 - 6/$1.8K
#8 - 5/Minimum wage for hours worked.
#9 - 4/Minimum wage for hours worked.
HOUSE -2
#10 quitfired somewhere in the month and we'll run an ad first of the month.

If I'm in 6 thru 10 I get an umbrella and go out in the rain to see what someone wants. If I'm 4 or 5 I find something I have to do right now so I don't have to go out in the rain. If I'm 1-3 I go get a cup of coffee and see who I recognize in the service lounge.

LWW
LWW

LWW

14th April 2008, 14:22

I was just having this discussion with a co-worker this morning. Its a two-sided coin - sales people get jaded because of the large amount of crap they put up with from consumers, while the consumers get jaded with the large amounts of BS they put up with from sales guys. So, bitter consumer comes in, eventually 'infecting' the sales guy (who may have been a good guy to begin with), and then this newly bitter sales guy infects a new consumer, causing him to become bitter. Its a cycle, and we are far, far down the path, so now expectations are set (on both sides of the fence) that the other guy is out to screw you.

Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, if I got my point across above.
No, you pretty much nailed it.

I do see it changing however.

Over time I have seen the law, and CSI reports, and state AGs, run an awful lot of the bad guys out of town. With the ease of info flow more and more people do have a clue about overall business and are less vulnerable to misconception and deceit.

The other change however, is that there is a fairly large subset of the consumer public at large who will work the system exactly the opposite of their intent with impunity and a complete lack of conscience.

More than once I've taken the call from someone who attempts to extort free whatever or else they will send in a straight zero CSI report. When the sales rep is off at 5 but waits till 7 for someone to show up who made an appt for 6 and then keeps them till 10 and then has them pull something like this.

As long as "HOW TO" guides and neighborhood "EXPERTS" advocate this type of stuff the problems won't go away completely.

LWW

LWW

14th April 2008, 14:34

A couple things I'd like to point out regarding thedriving:

Additionally:

There's this shoe store at a mall in my town. It's a place called Runabout Sports. When you go in there, you have a sales guy who comes up, and then spend usually a long time picking out a pair of shoes. The last few times I was there I tried on probably a total of 15 pairs of shoes. Each pair of shoes was presented by the knowledgeable sales guy, and by watching me walk and looking at my feet he got a feel for my tendency to over-pronate when running as well as my arches. Knowing this, he brought out a lot of shoes which I tried on and ran in.
It's an extremely pleasant buying experience, and I walked out with a pair of shoes.
I don't think I'll ever buy shoes elsewhere. Everyone else I know who buys shoes often for running goes there. If someone asks me, I tell them that it's a great place.

The point? Just by helping customers out for yes, sometimes even upwards of an hour, they get tons of repeat customers and satisfaction, as well as positive word-of-mouth. I don't mind forking over a little extra because it's a great place.
Excellent post.

I have a few addenda to the train of thought however.

1 - Did you focus on the shoes, or how much they were giving you for your old shoes?

2- Did you focus on the shoes, or how much they were making on the shoes?

3 - Did you focus on the shoes, or how much they were giving you for your old shoes?

4 -Are you willing to allow a dealer to have a $0.15 per dollar net profit margin instead of less than $0.02 per dollar?

So, they aren't actually similar transactions.

You, however, do have the obvious sense to look at what you get for what you pay.

Too many salespeople miss that how they treat people directly impacts how they do come payday and too many people in society in general have never figured out that how they treat people determines how they are likely to be treated.

LWW

gludlow

14th April 2008, 14:39

enda to the train of thought however.

1 - Did you focus on the shoes, or how much they were giving you for your old shoes?
2- Did you focus on the shoes, or how much they were making on the shoes?
3 - Did you focus on the shoes, or how much they were giving you for your old shoes?
4 -Are you willing to allow a dealer to have a $0.15 per dollar net profit margin instead of less than $0.02 per dollar?

So, they aren't actually similar transactions.

LWW

You're right; that's because historically, shoe stores do not try to take advantage of their customers. But does that invalidate his REAL point, that a customer-focused, no pressure approach is the best way to sell something? Nope.

I fail to see the reason behind your post, you're not even addressing the point.

Greg 713

14th April 2008, 14:48

scolazz

14th April 2008, 15:42

If it were $12,000 I bet we would know a LOT more about shoe stores and their "games".

What about high-end appliances? You can easily spend $20k on a kitchen in just appliances and cabinets alone. Thats a cash transaction, generally.

I think alot of the frustration is the 'bundling' of financing with the deal. Now you are negotiating 2 deals (3 if you have a trade in). the sales guy at the dealership knows this, but most people treat it as one large transaction, and lose sight of 2/3rds of it. They might get a great deal on the trade, but get killed on the financing, etc.

It would be interesting to take a look at people that arrive at the dealership with financing lined up vs. those that finance through the dealer (ignoring trades for the purposes of this discussion) - which one has a better 'perceived' experience. I'd bet the guy that shows up with financing thinks he had an easier go at it, vs. the guy that financed via the dealer thinking he got screwed somehow.

miata54

14th April 2008, 16:31

I think back many years when Saturn first came on the scene with their "One Price - No Hassle" policy which has since exited. I ask my self "Why?'

Perhaps Saturn recognized the frustrations that in large part existed in an adversarial relationship between seller and buyer. Perceived or real. Perhaps they saw a better way to maximize their profits. I for one was delighted at this approach as it removed from me the hassle of haggling. Did I pay more than I would have some where else? Probably. But I was keen on the Saturn for various reasons. But I must admit, what really sold me on buying a Saturn was the sales person, sales approach and lack of harassment. Very low key, very helpful, very attentive. Outstanding dealer service with an excellent attitude. So much so that I returned 4 years later and bought my second Saturn from him.

It is interesting that this "One Price-No Hassle" policy has since been abandoned. Not sure just why. I realize that the "New Kid on The Block" effect has worn off and that Saturn has lost market share over the last 5-10 years. IMHO, they were never the worst nor the best. I always thought they were a good value for the money. Their marketing strategy suited a certain segment of the market place, but evidently not enough.

Would be interested to hear what others thoughts on the "One Price-No Hassle" policy, are.

Rich Wilkman

14th April 2008, 18:00

Well, it didn't make money for most of those years based on what was reported in the press. Could probably look back at the GM annual stock reports for more.

My wife bought a Saturn -- like the experience. It was her first new car and was a low stress. Did she get her money's worth? Nope. That's the dirty downside to one-price shops; you don't have any say in the price.

-Rich

I think back many years when Saturn first came on the scene with their "One Price - No Hassle" policy which has since exited. I ask my self "Why?'

Perhaps Saturn recognized the frustrations that in large part existed in an adversarial relationship between seller and buyer. Perceived or real. Perhaps they saw a better way to maximize their profits. I for one was delighted at this approach as it removed from me the hassle of haggling. Did I pay more than I would have some where else? Probably. But I was keen on the Saturn for various reasons. But I must admit, what really sold me on buying a Saturn was the sales person, sales approach and lack of harassment. Very low key, very helpful, very attentive. Outstanding dealer service with an excellent attitude. So much so that I returned 4 years later and bought my second Saturn from him.

It is interesting that this "One Price-No Hassle" policy has since been abandoned. Not sure just why. I realize that the "New Kid on The Block" effect has worn off and that Saturn has lost market share over the last 5-10 years. IMHO, they were never the worst nor the best. I always thought they were a good value for the money. Their marketing strategy suited a certain segment of the market place, but evidently not enough.

Would be interested to hear what others thoughts on the "One Price-No Hassle" policy, are.

Gord96BRG

14th April 2008, 18:05

It is interesting that this "One Price-No Hassle" policy has since been abandoned. Not sure just why. I realize that the "New Kid on The Block" effect has worn off and that Saturn has lost market share over the last 5-10 years. IMHO, they were never the worst nor the best. I always thought they were a good value for the money. Their marketing strategy suited a certain segment of the market place, but evidently not enough.

Would be interested to hear what others thoughts on the "One Price-No Hassle" policy, are.
Saturn did very well the first few years, and had excellent customer service scores and huge customer loyalty - far better than any other domestic division, IIRC. The problem was that the cars themselves were not very competitive when they were introduced - people bought them for the no hassle price, which was cheaper than Honda and Toyota's offerings. They were willing to overlook the poorer automobile they were buying in the deal. For a while, anyway - when Saturn didn't update or improve their models for year after year, the gap in performance, quality, refinement, etc. just grew larger and larger, to the point where people didn't want the cars anymore, even if they were cheaper and easier to buy.

Claff

14th April 2008, 19:05

jambo101

14th April 2008, 19:29

84im

14th April 2008, 22:04

LWW

15th April 2008, 08:08

What about high-end appliances? You can easily spend $20k on a kitchen in just appliances and cabinets alone. Thats a cash transaction, generally.
And if you bought $20K worth of high end appliances without negotiating they made a truckload more than if you had bought a $20K car at MSRP.

You can't have it both ways. If you want "ONE PRICE" it's going to always be a higher price than what could have been negotiated in the marketplace.

If you don't believe me then why do most one price stores fail?

The answer is simple. The average consumer:

-Goes to the "ONE PRICE" store cursing the games they would have to play elsewhere.

-Takes the "ONE PRICE" price, and heads to the next dealer to play the game ... cursing what they decided to do the entire time.

-After they beat the "ONE PRICE" price, they will proceed to spend $100.00 in gas and 3 weekends in time trying to beat the better than "ONE PRICE" price by an extra $50.00

-Complains about all the games they were "forced" to play.

LWW

LWW

15th April 2008, 08:10

The best experience I've had buying a new vehicle is through an auto broker. I didn't have to talk to a car salesperson. :toast:
When I picked up the car (a 2006 MINI Cooper S) all the paper work and pre-delivery discussion was done through the sales manager.
Auto brokers are a good way to save time.

Adding another middle man will never lower cost however.

LWW

LWW

15th April 2008, 08:18

Saturn did very well the first few years
Not really.

Saturn dealers did well for the first 2 years.

Ten years into the debacle the General had lost $3.5K per Saturn retailed.

After another nearly 10 years the people who thought this turkey could be made to fly were all gone and the board could finally agree that it was a massive mistake.

Keeping Saturn's head above water, subsidizing new showroom construction - having the highest ad cost per unit retailed in the industry - subsidizing free donuts and other touchie feelie stuff - funding the highest out of warranty repair rates in the company - massive lease and credit subsidization, ruined GM's financial position more than anything ... and it's not talked about much because it was self inflicted.

The smartest thing for GM to do would have been to take that dog out back and shoot it in about 1993 or so.

LWW

LWW

15th April 2008, 08:20

The dealer we buy our OTMs from is a no-haggle dealer that posts its lowest prices in the windshield. The prices we wind up paying are as good as other people have reported paying for similar cars at standard dealerships, so we're not complaining about that. We've had to go round and round a little bit over valuation of trade-ins. We've bought four cars from the same salesman and each time was a pressure-free experience, maybe even something that could be considered "fun". But we show up knowing exactly what we want and see that on the dealership's online inventory. It all goes very smoothly. I don't want to buy a new car from a regular dealership ever again.
The first store in a metro market to adopt this usually does quite well.

Few metro markets are big enough to support a 2nd or a 3rd.

As much as the American public screams about "THE GAME", most wouldn't have it any other way.

LWW

Lance Schall

15th April 2008, 09:09

The idea that consumers like the current process does not seem to follow from observation.

Maybe what sank Saturn was the crappy car, not the sales model. Other attempts at revised sales techniques might be, to extend your metaphor, trying to 'teach an old dog a new trick'.

I'd like to see Costco, Amazon, or god help us, Walmart get their hands on the retail of cars. We might learn something.

Gene-M

15th April 2008, 11:08

I'd like to see Costco, Amazon, or god help us, Walmart get their hands on the retail of cars. We might learn something.

Now that you mention it, I think I recall hearing something about Walmart planning to do just that, and if I remember correctly, it's supposed to be some sort of 'green' vehicle.

BGW17

15th April 2008, 12:21

I'd like to see Costco, Amazon, or god help us, Walmart get their hands on the retail of cars. We might learn something.

Sears did it in the early fifties with the Allstate A.K.A. as the Henry J.

GeeB

LWW

16th April 2008, 14:59

The idea that consumers like the current process does not seem to follow from observation.
It does seem incredible when viewed from only one side of the desk.

LWW

scolazz

16th April 2008, 17:34

It does seem incredible when viewed from only one side of the desk.

LWW

I think its one of those situations that everyone detests, but they wouldn't have it any other way :)

Greg 713

16th April 2008, 17:38

jebinc

16th April 2008, 19:05

So scolazz, after 120 posts did you get the car?
Other than the name calling a good conversation.

Car? What car? I thought this thread was about used car salesmen.. :D

scolazz

16th April 2008, 19:15

So scolazz, after 120 posts did you get the car?
Other than the name calling a good conversation.

LOL, this thread has some serious driftage.

No, I passed on the car. They refused to budge on price, and with a timing belt (and water pump, and pulleys etc.) due in the next month or so, I didn't want to purchase a car, then have to spend $1k on it right away.

71Bacon

23rd April 2008, 20:45

Um, I was really shocked to come across this thread and all of the fine points thedriver was trying to make. What an effort at trying to communicate, what persistence, what patience. Wow.

I hope that all you guys that were angered by some of his points cool off enough to come back and read his posts some day again; these are the insight and comments of a professional negotiator and a lot of the tools he is using are not only used for simple goods like cars. What many of you mistook for arrogance etc is only someone who is able to asertain his position during the negotiation and is able to negotiate from a position of power and skill vs. one of weakness and ignorance of the process (like all you gents that won't be talked to this way or that way or will leave at the drop of a hat). Having all kinds of notions about how tough you are and how you won't take guff only means you are more likely to bail out of positions compared to people who aren't so sensitive.

And it was amazing to me... how many people missed the basic advice. Know the price you are going to pay, know your financial limit, know the local market. Then know how to play the game like thedriver was so generously attempting to illustrate.

I did the basics and humored the dealer by playing the game and respecting their store. I researched my new car in a three state market, came up with a price, and in I went. I told the sales person I would pay $27000 for that car and let's begin. When he went to calcuate payments I had to nearly shout, "How can you calculate payments when we have not agreed on a selling price?" to which he responded "I've done this 20 years". OK. I then called the wife, said I would be way late, got some water and a magazine. I knew this price would cost me and got comfortable.

About three hours later, and 20 minutes after closing, the staff lost patience and the real talk started, with my focus on the selling price. I showed them my research and quotes. Finally the finance guy was giving me a strange look and I said, "$27,050"? And that was it. They just needed me to budge a little bit so they could say they negotiated. It was a really pleasant transaction after the ignorant stuff passed by but you know what? They would not know me from shinola without testing me. And that is how the game is played.

So thedriver thanks for your comments, I took them as a barometer of the business and recognize that you have the skillset and flexibility to take any approach you want. And furthermore so will any other sales professional, I think people missed that. Your comments were a revelation and I will use them in all sorts of situations. Some of your notes were a bit too sophisticated for Joe Respect and Don't Wanna Talk and Never Lost Money Ever Before etc so maybe in the future keep them tuned for your audience and they might be better recieved.

thedriving

26th April 2008, 20:32

RawRats

26th April 2008, 20:58

justin.b

26th April 2008, 21:11

wow. Thanks very much. I actually bailed on this thread quite a while ago , I'm glad I checked back. It's nice to know at least one person who wasn't in the business already got what I was trying to say.

Everyone got what you were trying to say.

-Justin

Geoclam

26th April 2008, 21:50

I wasn't sure if here or 'car talk' was the appropriate place, but here it is.

I've been talking to a dealer about a used car on his lot. This is the same dealer I bought my SUV from new, FYI. It's been two days, and the car is available to show as of today (it was at another of their dealers and had to be shuttled over).

I tell him to call me when it gets there, and I'll swing by after work to take a peek. Well, don't you know, he calls me a few hours later and leaves a voice mail, looking for me to put a deposit on it, as "there is someone else coming by shortly to look at it, I can hear another salesman talking on the phone to them now"

To me, this just seems like an old trick, looking to get me to put a deposit on the car, as I'm sure most people that put deposits down end up buying the car. I have no intention of putting one down, and am prepared to lose the car because of that (lots more fish in the ocean).

Do you think he's pulling my leg? Any of the salesmen on here feel free to chime in, I'd like to get your perspectives, too.
I just read the OP and did not read the rest of the thread, as this is such a pathetic sales tool.

Question #1:
If you have already been talking to your salesman about this particular car, then howcome he does not support you? Howcome salesman #2 all of a sudden takes precedence? Howcome your guy doesn't fight for his commission, and tell Salesguy #2 that there may already be a pending deal?

Comment #1:
Yes, most people that put down a deposit end up buying that car. Fact is - a dealer will not usually even consider a purchase deposit, unless the agreed price is suitable to them, or is so close that they figure that can easily bump you up a few more $. A deposit is an emotional committment. If you sign a purchase offer, along with a deposit, you own that car as soon as the dealer accepts your offer.

Experience #1:
Car salesmen will do anything to keep a "nice" car for their prospective clients.
My first new car was a '68 Chevelle (paid $3,200 out of the showroom, but could not afford to buy that same car today).
Anyway, my salesman was my girlfriend's (future wife's) brother in law.
He said, "I've got something you will like".
Took me into the body shop, where stuck in a corner, under a tarp was a gorgeous '67 Mustang convertible, mint, Special Edition, full load. He was hiding it from the other salesmen.
I said, "yeah, it's really nice, but I want a NEW car.
One my life's worst decisions.

thedriving

26th April 2008, 23:25

Question #1:
If you have already been talking to your salesman about this particular car, then howcome he does not support you? Howcome salesman #2 all of a sudden takes precedence? Howcome your guy doesn't fight for his commission, and tell Salesguy #2 that there may already be a pending deal?

You can't be serious. Do you think salesman #2 cares in the slightest if salesman #1 has somebody looking at that car?
Do you have ANY clue how hard another salesman would laugh in my face if I said "hey can you not sell that car I have someone coming to look at it?" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

thedriving

26th April 2008, 23:52

Its funny, I just bought a new car a few weeks ago, but I was looking at one at another dealer. The dealer was a bit farther away, but it had my 1st choice color. I had bought from that sales guy before. This was a Friday, then he pulled the "why don't you put a deposit on it so we can keep it for you, its a popular color right now" since I wasn't ready to buy until Monday or Tuesday. My heart sank - here was another crook!

Long story short, the car sold on Saturday. Was gone when I went to get it on Tuesday. In this economy a frikkin Jetta was sold out from under me!

In my mind, he should have just held it for me, period, but I understand he does have to make money, and he had no money from me....so....

I missed this one the first time around.
Oh man that's funny stuff.
First you accuse the guy of being a crook for asking you to put a deposit on a car you want because it's in high demand and he's concerned about you not being able to get the car. Then the car sells the next day, thereby proving that it truly is in high demand. :bang:
He tried to help you out and your fear caused you to miss out on the car you wanted.
Then you go on to say that he should have just held it for you.
Come on. Seriously?
They are running a business. If you aren't willing to make some kind of commitment to buy the product no business is going to forgo selling the item to another prospective buyer. If you were buying a house would you expect the seller to take it off the market for you without earnest money? Same principal.
Do you have any idea how many people pinky promise, on their honor as a man, on their mothers grave blah, blah, blah, that they are coming back to buy the car and you never see them again?
Literally Countless.

tbearmiata

27th April 2008, 00:03

I take it from his last sentence that he didn't really expect them to hold the car.

Just a question - few comments here on wasting a salespersons time. If, for example, I'm looking at an Accord, a Camry or an Altima and have never driven any of them, how am I supposed to actually drive them without "wasting" time. I'm not going to the Honda dealer, drive an Accord and "buy today" without testing the other two. This did happen to me once and although I told the salesperson upfront that I was testing, he still stomped off when I took the brochures/business card and left after the test drive. Any suggestions?

Geoclam

27th April 2008, 00:32

You can't be serious. Do you think salesman #2 cares in the slightest if salesman #1 has somebody looking at that car?
Do you have ANY clue how hard another salesman would laugh in my face if I said "hey can you not sell that car I have someone coming to look at it?" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Point well made.

Yes, I do understand that salesmen #1 and #2 would do anything to sell a car or steal a deal. It is a business (and personal survival), after all.

Yes, I do understand that there is a pecking order in the weight that a salesman can swing with the sales manager, in order to try and make a sale.

What I was trying to say, is that if I were salesman #1, I would lie or cheat, or do whatever was necessary to keep that car "unavailable" until my client came to see me.

I admit that I have never been in retail auto sales.
Though I do have considerable experience in wholesale finance, and how cars can sometimes "disappear" off the lot for a while.

Our arguments may be moot, as we do not know:
- the time lines involved.
- the seniority (and sales volume) between #1 and #2.

Regardless, I do not mean to challenge you on your sales expertise.
It's just discussion.

thedriving

27th April 2008, 01:44

Point well made.
thank you.

Our arguments may be moot, as we do not know:
- the time lines involved.
- the seniority (and sales volume) between #1 and #2.
Actually, the seniority, or sales volume are generally irrelevant...whoever can sell the car first for the most money is all management cares about. Nobody is holding a car without a deposit.

Regardless, I do not mean to challenge you on your sales expertise.
It's just discussion.
I didn't feel challenged, it is just a discussion. ;)

q

thedriving

27th April 2008, 02:38

I take it from his last sentence that he didn't really expect them to hold the car.

Just a question - few comments here on wasting a salespersons time. If, for example, I'm looking at an Accord, a Camry or an Altima and have never driven any of them, how am I supposed to actually drive them without "wasting" time. I'm not going to the Honda dealer, drive an Accord and "buy today" without testing the other two. This did happen to me once and although I told the salesperson upfront that I was testing, he still stomped off when I took the brochures/business card and left after the test drive. Any suggestions?

That's an awesome question. I think you did the right thing and unfortunately came across an A-Hole salesman. That's too bad.

Ok, what should you do in this situation?
Go to the dealership and when you get upped, tell the salesman, "I'm not buying today, I just want to drive this car to see if I like it, I'm going to look at two other cars and then make my decision. If I decide to buy this model I will definitely come talk to you." Let him try to sell you the car, that's his job. If you are not interested in buying the car don't look at numbers. What do you care what their best deal is on a car you don't want? Just tell him what you are doing up front. If he is the kind of salesman that feels you are a waste of time? He'll lot-drop you. Some other salesman will up you and drive you in the car.
The key is be honest up front. Most salespeople will respect that.

ACBlessing

27th April 2008, 02:46

I'll admit right away that I'm only replying to synchromesh and I haven't read the lengthy responses thoroughly. It's just that I agree with him in that his apprehension is not unique. The buyer who enters a dealership without doubt gets screwed.
I/we all know about the confusing numbers game that goes from bottom-line price to "how much do you want to pay per month?" back and forth between the salesman and boss ...and that ends up with the buyer paying beyond a fair price only to end up with "affordable" monthly payments albeit for three years longer.

I am not knocking the salesman as I know he/she is doing what he has to do to make a sale and maintain his employment. It isn't that he doesn't have a right to make a living; it is the outright, dispicable way that he/she manipulates numbers, witholds truths and manipulates realities toward honest buyers that makes him the lowest and most deplorable piece of $hit on earth.

Salesmen do not declare the pennies on the dollar they paid a sucker for his trade in, nor that they jack the price of the used car beyond KBB or NADA just so they can provide you the monthly payment you specified, albeit increased by several years, nor do they mention the manufacturer holdbacks (kickbacks for selling a car despite at no profit) nor do they disclose that despite many other lenders would approve your loan, the dealer chose to go with the one who gives the dealership the highest kickback for suckering you into their absurd loan terms (despite your high credit score).

This isn't about one guy getting screwed once; this is about a systemic, calculated and sophisticated way to continuously screw the buyer. So I expect a few salesmen will chime in about how it is about "buyer beware" and how they have a right to make a living and so on but nothing and I mean nothing approaches the sleazy techiques involved in buying a car, especially a used car from a dealer.

Really, buyers should ultimately secure their own loan and buy from a private seller for an honest and fairly negotiated price and leave the bottom-feeders out of the loop.

ACBlessing

27th April 2008, 03:25

Oh, and to "thedriving" it is amazing that despite dealerships' systematic screwing of the confused consumer, you deny this guy's natural apprehension toward dealers and instead turn it on him with the same sob story about salesmen needing to make a living too. Give me a break. I guess he should go in to any dealership and stupidly trust that they're (you're) going to treat him honestly. Yes, they may smile and put on a good show but their actions are nothing less than leading the condemned to the gas chamber.

Nobody gives a $h1T about what clues a customer has about salesguy #1 and #2. As a matter of fact, since you're such a despicable bunch, nobody gives a $h1T about your dealership politics towar eachother or toward the customer in the end anyway. You just can't deny the the whole buying process is exactly that... a dishonest, deceitful and purposefully disadvantaging ordeal for a buyer.

tbearmiata

27th April 2008, 08:37

Pretty harsh comments from someone with a grand total of 7 posts.

thedriving - thanks for the advice. I did learn that one of the Honda dealers around here has someone show you the car and then turn you over to sales when it's time to negotiate. I'll probably start there first.

Lance Schall

27th April 2008, 10:24

LWW

27th April 2008, 11:47

Oh, and to "thedriving" it is amazing that despite dealerships' systematic screwing of the confused consumer, you deny this guy's natural apprehension toward dealers and instead turn it on him with the same sob story about salesmen needing to make a living too. Give me a break. I guess he should go in to any dealership and stupidly trust that they're (you're) going to treat him honestly. Yes, they may smile and put on a good show but their actions are nothing less than leading the condemned to the gas chamber.

Nobody gives a $h1T about what clues a customer has about salesguy #1 and #2. As a matter of fact, since you're such a despicable bunch, nobody gives a $h1T about your dealership politics towar eachother or toward the customer in the end anyway. You just can't deny the the whole buying process is exactly that... a dishonest, deceitful and purposefully disadvantaging ordeal for a buyer.
And you have just demonstrated why it is and that you have no idea why it is.

LWW

LWW

27th April 2008, 11:49

What you call 'harsh', I'd call 'enlightened'. With gas prices so high and consumers nervous about the economy, I drive by dealerships and look with glee at their acres of new cars sitting. I hope they are suffering at the hands of their bankers. Does it help that I have more than 7 posts?
And you take glee at the economy in recession and the effects that a dealership "suffering at the hands of their bankers" has on the employees, the community, the stockholders, and everything else which depends on a vital auto industry?

Quite revealing IMHO.

LWW

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 12:53

thedriving

27th April 2008, 12:59

I'll admit right away that I'm only replying to synchromesh and I haven't read the lengthy responses thoroughly.

I should have just stopped reading right there. You're like one of those right wing nuts that denounce the newest Michael Moore movie as a pack of lies and propaganda....and then admit you haven't actually seen it.
I figured you wouldn't have anything intelligent to say and I was right.
Do us and yourself a favor.If you can get past the big words and the complex concepts, go back and actually read my posts. Then if you can manage to make an intelligent argument come back and do so. Otherwise, you're just spouting the usual fear based rhetoric.
If that's all you can bring to the table? Shush, grown folks are talking.

tbearmiata

27th April 2008, 13:28

What you call 'harsh', I'd call 'enlightened'. With gas prices so high and consumers nervous about the economy, I drive by dealerships and look with glee at their acres of new cars sitting. I hope they are suffering at the hands of their bankers. Does it help that I have more than 7 posts?

No, but let me know business you're in and I can take "glee" when bad news shows up about it (that's a joke, I don't find humor in anyone who loses their job without cause) I may not care at all for the car buying experience (which is why both of my miata have come from ebay) but I'm not wishing the people end up on the unemployment line.

My only real comment about that post was a new poster showing up and putting ^%&%*&% every third sentence. Usually this board is pretty civilized compared to most.

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 13:35

thedriving

27th April 2008, 13:50

Wow; another post of yours that makes me think if I were still living in Austin, I'd find out where you work to make sure I was steering clear when shopping for my next vehicle. Not only would there be a complete lack of trust, there would also be constant gagging, on my part, at your larger-than-life arrogance. No deal.

See crap like this just cracks me up. My comment was directed towards a person who felt free to refer to people in my profession (and therefore me) as "the lowest and most deplorable piece of $hit on earth." Right after admitting he hadn't actually read what I wrote.
I simply was inviting him to read what I wrote and make some kind of cogent argument against what my whole premise has been in this thread all along.
So let me see if I have this straight: on one side is the guy who doesn't bother to actually read what someone says and then comes on here and calls filthy names and spews pointless invective.
On the other side is a person requesting that he stop name calling, read the original posts and then make a valid argument.
You're on the side of the ignorant name caller?
(oh, and before you accuse me of calling him ignorant? He is ignorant of the argument at hand because he hasn't read the posts he said so himself!)
I'm not arrogant at all. If you object to my being condescending to someone who comes on here and acts like a child that's unfortunate. In my view if someone acts like a child you treat them like one. If someone makes a valid point and I disagree with it I respond in kind, I don't call them names.

LWW

27th April 2008, 14:13

You just can't deny the the whole buying process is exactly that... a dishonest, deceitful and purposefully disadvantaging ordeal for a buyer.
Also, since you claim to know so much ... please explain how this happens?

How is it dishonest when a price is clearly marked on every new car for sale in America ... and one that isn't even determined by the dealer ... yet everyone who claims to hate the game insists on playing the game?

How is it deceitful when dealer costs are well known and readily available?

How are you disadvantaged when you have THOUSANDS of dealerships to select from?

Please elaborate ... otherwise you come across as a hater with an agenda.

LWW

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 14:26

[thedriving]See crap like this just cracks me up. My comment was directed towards a person who felt free to refer to people in my profession (and therefore me) as "the lowest and most deplorable piece of $hit on earth." Right after admitting he hadn't actually read what I wrote.

From someone who has read this entire thread, I have to say, his assessment seems uncannily accurate.

I simply was inviting him to read what I wrote and make some kind of cogent argument against what my whole premise has been in this thread all along.

You consider an unfounded insult an invitation? :bang:

I'm not arrogant at all. If you object to my being condescending to someone who comes on here and acts like a child that's unfortunate.

Arrogant, condescending.. call it what you'd like; neither is an attitude I'd seek out for my next business transaction.

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 14:39

Also, since you claim to know so much ... please explain how this happens?

Please elaborate ... otherwise you come across as a hater with an agenda.

LWWThe guy "wrote a book" of descriptives, yet you want him to elaborate further? LOL

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 14:52

How is it deceitful when dealer costs are well known and readily available?LWWStraight from ACBlessing's post: Salesmen do not declare the pennies on the dollar they paid a sucker for his trade in.

That's just one example of the games played.

When I was looking to trade-in on my next Miata, a lousy salesperson tried to super low-ball me on my current vehicle. I countered with, then I guess the poor soul who traded-in the vehicle I'm interested in, gave it up for a super low amount. That seems to conflict with the jacked-up sticker price you slapped on it.

His jaw was still dropped as I walked out of his dealership and on to one that was better able to play fair.

thedriving

27th April 2008, 14:55

I simply was inviting him to read what I wrote and make some kind of cogent argument against what my whole premise has been in this thread all along.

You consider an unfounded insult an invitation? :bang:

Please elaborate on this. How did I insult him? I asked him to make a valid point. How is it unfounded? He said he didn't read the posts that's the foundation of my so called insult. I didn't call him any names I simply asked him to read the posts and then make an argument instead of just flinging crap around.

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 15:01

I simply was inviting him to read what I wrote and make some kind of cogent argument against what my whole premise has been in this thread all along.

You consider an unfounded insult an invitation? :bang:

Please elaborate on this. How did I insult him? I asked him to make a valid point. How is it unfounded? He said he didn't read the posts that's the foundation of my so called insult. I didn't call him any names I simply asked him to read the posts and then make an argument instead of just flinging crap around.Again, the guy wrote a book. You just can't get past the part where he fails to hide his view of salespeople.

rx8rotary

27th April 2008, 15:05

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 15:06

thedriving

27th April 2008, 15:07

Straight from ACBlessing's post: Salesmen do not declare the pennies on the dollar they paid a sucker for his trade in.

That's just one example of the games played.

When I was looking to trade-in on my next Miata, a lousy salesperson tried to super low-ball me on my current vehicle. I countered with, then I guess the poor soul who traded-in the vehicle I'm interested in, gave it up for a super low amount. That seems to conflict with the jacked-up sticker price you slapped on it.

His jaw was still dropped as I walked out of his dealership and on to one that was better able to play fair.

This is a patently lame argument.
How much did it cost the builder of your house to make it? How much did it cost the restaurant to put that piece of steak on your plate?
It doesn't matter!
What matters is this: what do you feel the value of the product to be and are willing to pay it?
If you think the price exceeds the value you don't buy it. It's a simple equation. In any business you have to buy low and sell high. That's how you stay in business. Why is that so hard to understand? Instead of being mad about the price they offered for your trade negotiate a better price for yourself. Don't like how much they are asking on the car you want to buy? Don't cry about it and leave the dealership in a huff, negotiate a better price for yourself.
The idea that a dealer is being dishonest because they don't reveal how much they paid for a car is absurd.

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 15:11

Instead of using the bandwidth nere to argue with each other why don't you use the PM system and continue your debate?I'm finding this thread quite enlightening. thedriver sells cars in Austin. I've bought cars in Austin. I like seeing what makes this guy tick, as I'm sure there are many salesmen like him in the D/FW area.

I can't say I care to PM with the guy, so if that's what it has to come to, I guess I need to bow out now. :wave:

rx8rotary

27th April 2008, 15:13

austxdfw

27th April 2008, 15:19

This is a patently lame argument.
How much did it cost the builder of your house to make it? How much did it cost the restaurant to put that piece of steak on your plate?
It doesn't matter!
What matters is this: what do you feel the value of the product to be and are willing to pay it?
If you think the price exceeds the value you don't buy it. It's a simple equation. In any business you have to buy low and sell high. That's how you stay in business. Why is that so hard to understand? Instead of being mad about the price they offered for your trade negotiate a better price for yourself. Don't like how much they are asking on the car you want to buy? Don't cry about it and leave the dealership in a huff, negotiate a better price for yourself.
The idea that a dealer is being dishonest because they don't reveal how much they paid for a car is absurd.Sorry Bob. Just one more reply..

thedriver, I wasn't mad, I didn't cry, and I didn't leave in a huff. That's what was so darn amusing about the whole thing. And I did negotiate a good deal; at a dealership across town. They offered me a fair deal for my trade, then dropped their price on the Miata to one that was more competitive.

The initial dealership lost me with their pathetic attempt on my trade-in.

Alright, adios amigos. :wave:

tbearmiata

27th April 2008, 16:55

LWW

27th April 2008, 17:44

Straight from ACBlessing's post: Salesmen do not declare the pennies on the dollar they paid a sucker for his trade in.

That's just one example of the games played.

When I was looking to trade-in on my next Miata, a lousy salesperson tried to super low-ball me on my current vehicle. I countered with, then I guess the poor soul who traded-in the vehicle I'm interested in, gave it up for a super low amount. That seems to conflict with the jacked-up sticker price you slapped on it.

His jaw was still dropped as I walked out of his dealership and on to one that was better able to play fair.
That explains nothing.

You use the phrase "pennies on the dollar" so let's rlate that ... how many pennies on the dollar of sales do you think the dealer should make?

You complained so gimme a figger hot shot.

LWW

DrivingAlong

28th April 2008, 14:49

This has been an enlightening thread, seriously.

I think a lot of what people hate about buying cars is way beyond the control of the sales staff. The salesperson is just the point of contact with the whole rigged system.

For one thing, manufacturers screw customers with their options packages, and we know it. I want a Miata with limited slip differential and electronic stability control, so I want one of the premium packages +/- suspension package. The premium packages are only available with Grand Touring trim, so I'm stuck buying that even though I personally dislike leather seats and would never spend good money on a fancy car audio system. Difference between the base MSRP of the Grand Touring and Touring models is $1310, and that's just to make me eligible to buy the options I want. And one of the options I want is recommended for all cars by the Insurance Institute for Hwy Safety. When I get going this stuff makes me see red.

Also, I think people feel defensive because they don't know the cars or the money. That feeling of powerlessness is bad even if they're getting a good deal, and they can't tell if the deal is good. It's easy to say they should educate themselves, but many people genuinely don't know how or don't have the time. In other areas of life this complicated and expensive, we have a professional who's theoretically on our side: lawyer, CPA, real estate agent, doctor. Buying a car, you're an amateur on your own against professionals.

Dealerships are still part of the problem. I once did a test drive on a whim in a used RAV4. It wasn't the model I had researched, and I didn't know reasonable prices. I told the saleperson that I wasn't buying that day. He got me inside anyway -- "At least let us give you a quote....". I got the quote and got up to go. I'm a 5'3" woman, and I ended up with five bigger, taller men surrounding me. "Why are you leaving?" "Don't you want the RAV4?" "You can drive home in the RAV4 today." "Are you unhappy with something?" "What offer would you accept?" :bang: I was freaked out, and a very nice male acquaintance spent his whole day the following weekend helping me buy a car. That shouldn't be necessary.

Anyway, thanks to all for an open discussion from both sides. Hopefully I'll have a few more clues the next time around. ;)

LWW

28th April 2008, 19:31

For one thing, manufacturers screw customers with their options packages, and we know it. I want a Miata with limited slip differential and electronic stability control, so I want one of the premium packages +/- suspension package. The premium packages are only available with Grand Touring trim, so I'm stuck buying that even though I personally dislike leather seats and would never spend good money on a fancy car audio system. Difference between the base MSRP of the Grand Touring and Touring models is $1310, and that's just to make me eligible to buy the options I want. And one of the options I want is recommended for all cars by the Insurance Institute for Hwy Safety. When I get going this stuff makes me see red.
And you have some BAD disinformation.

If cars were built with a total laundry list of pick and choose options they would cost enormously more money.

If you doubt this go to Porsche's site where you can pick and choose most every option individually and see how ridiculous the pricing gets.These are mass market cars and because of that manufacturing processes are streamlined in every way possible.

You can't seriously complain about high prices and complain that they do everything possible to keep prices low. :rolleyes:

LWW

austxdfw

28th April 2008, 19:56

I'm a 5'3" woman, and I ended up with five bigger, taller men surrounding me. "Why are you leaving?" "Don't you want the RAV4?" "You can drive home in the RAV4 today." "Are you unhappy with something?" "What offer would you accept?" :bang: I was freaked out, and a very nice male acquaintance spent his whole day the following weekend helping me buy a car. That shouldn't be necessary.I'm female too, and though I haven't experienced your same situation, I have wondered if it would be easier to deal on a car if I were a guy.

Going back to my previous post of being low-balled on a trade and high-end sticker offered on the car of interest; I swear, the guy was just downright shocked that I knew my figures.

My line of work is professional, and I dress the part; so being that I give the appearance of someone who is educated, I can't help but think my being female had something to do with the guy's inaccurate assessment of me.

DrivingAlong

28th April 2008, 22:15

And you have some BAD disinformation.

If cars were built with a total laundry list of pick and choose options they would cost enormously more money.

[....]

LWW

Actually, I understand that. For things like the high-end audio system I can roll my eyes and bite the bullet. What gets me is when there are safety options that are only available with a lot of other expensive options, or on the highest trim lines. From an ethical standpoint, I think options that are proven to increase safety should be available on all trim lines at a reasonable price, even if you have to package them together as the "safety package" or something.

Thanks for answering and for all your posts in this thread, I've really enjoyed reading them.

DrivingAlong

28th April 2008, 22:23

[....]

My line of work is professional, and I dress the part; so being that I give the appearance of someone who is educated, I can't help but think my being female had something to do with the guy's inaccurate assessment of me.

Yeah, I know. High heels and backwards.

LWW

29th April 2008, 04:45

Actually, I understand that. For things like the high-end audio system I can roll my eyes and bite the bullet. What gets me is when there are safety options that are only available with a lot of other expensive options, or on the highest trim lines. From an ethical standpoint, I think options that are proven to increase safety should be available on all trim lines at a reasonable price, even if you have to package them together as the "safety package" or something.

Thanks for answering and for all your posts in this thread, I've really enjoyed reading them.
In principle I don't disagree with you.

That being said, if marketing demonstrated that demand was there for such packaging it would exist.

It's easier to attest to this from having been in the biz, but you are looking at a purchase with far more logic than the average consumer ... and the lower priced the car the less logic matters.

As an example, given the CHOICE between only one of the options far more people will choose an audio upgrade than ABS. You used to be able to order most cars with a tire upgrade also, and most people would spring $500 for an upgrade to shiny wheels and howl like a banshee if it had a $100 tire upgrade listed separate which would keep them out of a ditch. It's nearly impossible to sell a new car today without PW/PL/AC and an electric sunroof. Show the buyer who can barely afford the $400 pmt that it's $375 without a sunroof and they act like you wanted them to live in a cave.

We live in a very jaded society and far too many people WILL NOT do what is in their own best interest, and further many will take offense if you try to explain to them what would be.

That, and you are welcome.

LWW

Geoclam

29th April 2008, 05:07

I'm female too, and though I haven't experienced your same situation, I have wondered if it would be easier to deal on a car if I were a guy.

Going back to my previous post of being low-balled on a trade and high-end sticker offered on the car of interest; I swear, the guy was just downright shocked that I knew my figures.

My line of work is professional, and I dress the part; so being that I give the appearance of someone who is educated, I can't help but think my being female had something to do with the guy's inaccurate assessment of me.
I agree completely with the male/female condescending attitude of most car sales "persons". Price may be only one issue.

I went along with my daughter, when she was looking for a new Accura.
She was in charge, I was just along for company.
We went to two major dealers.
At both dealerships, the salesmen saw she was a girl (obviously), and steered her towards cars with automatic transmissions.
She HATES auto trans, and she just walked off both lots.
"Why are you so angry", I asked.
She replied, "Because they just assumed, they didn't even ask what I was really looking for".

justin.b

29th April 2008, 07:24

Actually, I understand that. For things like the high-end audio system I can roll my eyes and bite the bullet. What gets me is when there are safety options that are only available with a lot of other expensive options, or on the highest trim lines. From an ethical standpoint, I think options that are proven to increase safety should be available on all trim lines at a reasonable price, even if you have to package them together as the "safety package" or something.

Thanks for answering and for all your posts in this thread, I've really enjoyed reading them.

The car itself may also dictate how the options are packaged. A lot of Miatas are warm-weather only cars and/or track / autox cars where the owners would not want the traction control. IMHO, this is an option logically packaged with other convenience items to fit the profile of a customer using it as a year-round commuter.

In any case, your beef is with the manufacturer on this issue, not the dealership / salesman. There are many recommended safety features that are not available on some cars at any price.

-Justin

LWW

29th April 2008, 12:27

I agree completely with the male/female condescending attitude of most car sales "persons". Price may be only one issue.

I went along with my daughter, when she was looking for a new Accura.
She was in charge, I was just along for company.
We went to two major dealers.
At both dealerships, the salesmen saw she was a girl (obviously), and steered her towards cars with automatic transmissions.
She HATES auto trans, and she just walked off both lots.
"Why are you so angry", I asked.
She replied, "Because they just assumed, they didn't even ask what I was really looking for".
I'm going to add something that some people may find shocking.

The highest average commissions in my experience are from females selling to females followed by minorities selling to minorities.

I'm not saying this is good, bad, or indifferent ... just that it is.

LWW

rx8rotary

29th April 2008, 12:34

I got a wild hair last week and decided I would consider buying a NC. I usually buy used but I found a dealer with 4 left over 07s in stock. They were 6ATs (which I don't really want and apparently otehrs didn't as well) and loaded out GTs. I thoguth if they made a great deal I would buy one. As we started writing down figures, he added $895 for protection package. :eek:. I asked him what he thought he was doing and he said they added this to every car and started teh sales pitch. I politely got up, told him I can now see why he has 4 left over 07s when everyone else is sold out and when I took a major decline in my intelligence level I would call him and left. He chased me to the car, his sales manager later called, followed by the Gm trying to get me to come back and said they would take that off no questions asked.

Too late - you try to rip me off and you lose my business forever.

jayhawk

29th April 2008, 13:24

Long but interesting thread and having purchased over 60 cars in my life (not including those for my wife and kids) I can relate.

I sort of approach the car buying like my golf game these days. Lower one's expectations and you'll feel more satisfied when things goes well! ;)

I generally expect attempts to be talked into something else, the "what can I do to sell you this car today?" pitch, the salemen's frequent travel from our little booth to the sales manager, and the statements about what's so bad about my car and what's so good about theirs (even if I know more about the car's attributes than the salesman). When it goes well, we have a good conversation, share a coffee, are friendly during the "show" and I feel like I've gotten a fair deal according to my research. I go in well armed with the data on the car and if something new pops up (a car I didn't know about on their lots) I check on line sometimes using their computers or come back after I know more-- but am always prepared to walk if the deal looks funny or goes bad. It does go bad sometimes in the ways discussed here but I accept that it will sometimes. Makes good stories.

tbearmiata

29th April 2008, 13:33

As we started writing down figures, he added $895 for protection package. :eek:. I asked him what he thought he was doing and he said they added this to every car and started teh sales pitch.

I haven't seen the "protection package" scam in awhile over here. It's mainly the $500 "doc" fees. I did almost walk on my Accord when they tried to add that in finance.

jayhawk

29th April 2008, 14:13

I I did almost walk on my Accord when they tried to add that in finance.

Wow! That's the highest I've heard of-- Is it even worse with the luxury/exotic cars? Most I paid was $295 and that killed me even when I thought I had accounted for it in negotiations.

LWW

29th April 2008, 14:47

Doc fees, protection package, who cares.

The figure that matters is $XX,XXX.XX total is acceptable or not. $XX,XXX.XX trade is acceptable or not. X.X% APR is acceptable or not.

Does it REALLY matter how it was arrived at?

If $20K is acceptable to me and they sell the car for $1.00 plus a $19K protection package and a $999.00 doc fee I really don't care ... and I'm astounded that people go in looking for a fight to the point they give themselves brain damage.

Wrong behavior is unacceptable, but if you go in looking for a fight and get one ... well you got what you wanted even if you don't realize it.

A new car is the easiest thing on Earth to by and I've written numerous posts and started threads on how to never end up in the situations described here ... and very few listen.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ... cars continue to be sold in this manner at big volume dealers because people continue to buy them in this manner.

LWW

LWW

29th April 2008, 14:51

Wow! That's the highest I've heard of-- Is it even worse with the luxury/exotic cars? Most I paid was $295 and that killed me even when I thought I had accounted for it in negotiations.
It depends on the state.

More and more states have offloaded record keeping and tax collection onto businesses ... with no reduction in cost on their end ... and allowed dealers to recoup their expense through the fee.

This has created a situation where if the dealer builds the fee into the selling price they are at a distinct price disadvantage against everyone else who doesn't.

What you are witnessing is business taking the heat for poor government and nothing more.

That doesn't make it any more pleasant, but people need to know where their anger should be directed instead of just shooting the messenger.

LWW

LWW

29th April 2008, 14:57

BTW, if I were in the market for a new car ... here is the process I would follow ---> CLICKIE (http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=154377).

I would not get ripped off.

I would not end up in a confrontational situation.

I would not inflict brain damage on them or myself.

I would go home happy.

I would do it in 1 day start to finish.

LWW

rx8rotary

29th April 2008, 15:02

Doc fees, protection package, who cares.

The figure that matters is $XX,XXX.XX total is acceptable or not. $XX,XXX.XX trade is acceptable or not. X.X% APR is acceptable or not.

Does it REALLY matter how it was arrived at?

If $20K is acceptable to me and they sell the car for $1.00 plus a $19K protection package and a $999.00 doc fee I really don't care ... and I'm astounded that people go in looking for a fight to the point they give themselves brain damage.

Wrong behavior is unacceptable, but if you go in looking for a fight and get one ... well you got what you wanted even if you don't realize it.

A new car is the easiest thing on Earth to by and I've written numerous posts and started threads on how to never end up in the situations described here ... and very few listen.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ... cars continue to be sold in this manner at big volume dealers because people continue to buy them in this manner.

LWW

When a man sits across from me and adds a $895 protection package to a car that he should be discounting off the top instead of adding to the top, I lose my ability to trust him. Sure he may take it back off but he is trying to play a mindgame with me - "Mr. Hill, we have come down X amount of $ already". No, you came down $X - $895 - two totally different figures.

I didn't go in looking for a fight. I went in with a checkbook ready to buy if the price was right. When he added his addendum before we got started I knew I was wasting my time. My time is too valuable to play games like that. In all honesty he did me a favor - I didn't need to buy another car anyway, even if it was a new Miata. Had he not added that on things might have turned out differently.

BeerBurner

29th April 2008, 15:09

I'd have walked, too.

Honestly, I don't look at just the bottom line in my purchases. I'd rather give my busiiness to someone who makes my purchasing experience pleasant and makes me feel that I can rely on them to back their merchandise should something go wrong, even if that means spending more money. I see it as, well, rewarding good behavior.

I don't go in looking for fights. But I'm not going to play games, either.

BB.

Greg 713

29th April 2008, 15:19

A new car is the easiest thing on Earth to by and I've written numerous posts and started threads on how to never end up in the situations described here ... and very few listen.
I did! Go back about 392,718 posts and I even referenced it a few times and suggested people read it.

Do I get a star? :-)

LWW

29th April 2008, 17:14

When a man sits across from me and adds a $895 protection package to a car that he should be discounting off the top instead of adding to the top, I lose my ability to trust him. Sure he may take it back off but he is trying to play a mindgame with me - "Mr. Hill, we have come down X amount of $ already". No, you came down $X - $895 - two totally different figures.

I didn't go in looking for a fight. I went in with a checkbook ready to buy if the price was right. When he added his addendum before we got started I knew I was wasting my time. My time is too valuable to play games like that. In all honesty he did me a favor - I didn't need to buy another car anyway, even if it was a new Miata. Had he not added that on things might have turned out differently.
Then you should have made your offer.

Instead you made an emotional decision on a financial matter.

\LWW

LWW

29th April 2008, 17:15

I did! Go back about 392,718 posts and I even referenced it a few times and suggested people read it.

Do I get a star? :-)
Thanks, and I hope it helped.

A pet peeve of mine, not aimed at you, is that those who claim to know the most about how to buy a car have the hardest time doing it.

LWW

Lance Schall

29th April 2008, 17:23

Then you should have made your offer.

Instead you made an emotional decision on a financial matter.

\LWW
Are your customers robots or people?

I'll tell you straight up...I don't care, within reason, what I pay for the car. But, I hate the experience so you won't see me on the showroom floor.

Gene-M

29th April 2008, 18:49

I generally expect attempts to be talked into something else, the "what can I do to sell you this car today?" pitch, the salemen's frequent travel from our little booth to the sales manager, and the statements about what's so bad about my car and what's so good about theirs (even if I know more about the car's attributes than the salesman). When it goes well, we have a good conversation, share a coffee, are friendly during the "show" and I feel like I've gotten a fair deal according to my research. I go in well armed with the data on the car and if something new pops up (a car I didn't know about on their lots) I check on line sometimes using their computers or come back after I know more-- but am always prepared to walk if the deal looks funny or goes bad. It does go bad sometimes in the ways discussed here but I accept that it will sometimes. Makes good stories.

This sounds like a very sensible approach to me.

Doc fees, protection package, who cares.

The figure that matters is $XX,XXX.XX total is acceptable or not. $XX,XXX.XX trade is acceptable or not. X.X% APR is acceptable or not.

Agreed... what else is left to discuss about the whole matter?

tbearmiata

29th April 2008, 20:34

Doc fees, protection package, who cares.

The figure that matters is $XX,XXX.XX total is acceptable or not. $XX,XXX.XX trade is acceptable or not. X.X% APR is acceptable or not.

Does it REALLY matter how it was arrived at?

If $20K is acceptable to me and they sell the car for $1.00 plus a $19K protection package and a $999.00 doc fee I really don't care ... and I'm astounded that people go in looking for a fight to the point they give themselves brain damage.

Wrong behavior is unacceptable, but if you go in looking for a fight and get one ... well you got what you wanted even if you don't realize it.

A new car is the easiest thing on Earth to by and I've written numerous posts and started threads on how to never end up in the situations described here ... and very few listen.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again ... cars continue to be sold in this manner at big volume dealers because people continue to buy them in this manner.

LWW

Agree - when I saw the number put on the papers with no comment whatsoever from them (they didn't mention it) I just told them take it off or I'll leave. I wasn't confrontational, just factual. I have never gotten into an argument in a car deal. Either they agree to what I offer or I leave. I don't play games with them - it's a waste of my time and theirs.

And any doc fee by this dealer was a rip off. All they did was payoff the loan and mail me the title. I'm the one spending an hour in line at the DMV.

SB_92_MX5

29th April 2008, 21:10

I avoid delearships. I only buy good used cars from private owners. If they do not allow me to take the vehicle to the mechanic of my choice, I walk. I always pay cash for what I buy. I am 39, and have never made a monthly car payment.

"Money makes a great servant, but a lousy master."

DrivingAlong

29th April 2008, 21:28

Doc fees, protection package, who cares.

The figure that matters is $XX,XXX.XX total is acceptable or not. $XX,XXX.XX trade is acceptable or not. X.X% APR is acceptable or not.

Does it REALLY matter how it was arrived at?

If $20K is acceptable to me and they sell the car for $1.00 plus a $19K protection package and a $999.00 doc fee I really don't care ... and I'm astounded that people go in looking for a fight to the point they give themselves brain damage.

LWW

Depends how it's presented, because I do reach a point where I feel someone is being dishonest with me and I just don't want to do business with them anymore. In the case above, they were presenting a total that was unacceptable, so leaving would seem rational to me. Sure, maybe we could have reached an acceptable deal, but if I feel greasy then it's not worth it to have the day and the out-of-box experience spoiled.

I don't expect people to be rational about money, by the way. I'm a veterinarian, and I see way too many people make less-than-optimal decisions about their combined emotional / financial situation, despite the best advice I can give. I also see people who can't afford a recommended course of action but want to do something but won't tell me what my budget is, so I can't prioritize diagnostics and treatment appropriately. And people who tell me a budget but then change it, so that what I've done up to that point would have been different if I'd known. Argh. I felt some surprising empathy for the car salesperson above who was complaining people were keeping their info a secret from him. And I still don't think I'd trust my car saleperson with my actual budget. :-)

Greg 713

29th April 2008, 21:33

LWW

30th April 2008, 06:16

Depends how it's presented, because I do reach a point where I feel someone is being dishonest with me and I just don't want to do business with them anymore.
NOW you are getting to where I was hoping someone would take this.

If people would spend 10% of their efforts on investigating WHO and WHERE to buy from this problem would go away.

Spend a little time talking to owners about their experiences, reviewing CSI figures, checking with the BBB ... ask most people if they have or would do this and they look at you like you are nuts.

Run a ridiculous ad on TV for an automall and people will flock to the meat market with the highest overhead in town ... after all the man on TV said I would save big and not have to think.

If people could walk home on the the west side of the street in complete safety from harm and the elements but it costs a dime toll each day ... or walk home on the east side of the same street where their were wild dogs, muggers, and people tossing the bedpan contents down on you from the 3rd floor, which side would you walk on?

For reasons I will never never understand when it comes to buying cars a large number of people will walk on the east side knowing they will sooner or later get bittemn, robbed, and dumped.

But, they didn't have to pay the dime.

If you don't like rude and dishonest behavior then stop shopping these types of places.

If you decide to risk it anyway because you might save a dime ... well, you got what you wanted whether you realize you wanted it or not.

Not just with cars, but there are places in Dayton I go to and never question price because I have sufficient confidence in them from rep and experience that I don't really feel a need to. There are others that I wouldn't shop at no matter what deal they offered because I know I'm going to get hosed somewhere in the process.

If I want a 1 lb sack of peanuts I'd rather pay $.99 and enjoy my peanuts than pay $.98 and feel the need to go home and weight them to make sure sure I actually got 1 lb.

My $0.02. YMMV.

LWW

carcrazy1

30th April 2008, 10:57

More and more states have offloaded record keeping and tax collection onto businesses ... with no reduction in cost on their end ... and allowed dealers to recoup their expense through the fee.

This has created a situation where if the dealer builds the fee into the selling price they are at a distinct price disadvantage against everyone else who doesn't.

Which if boiled down is exactly the same as saying "we screw our customers around with a bait and switch pricing and negotiating program, but its the governments fault" :rolleyes:
And that is exactly how most dealerships operate....they rationalize and blame their methods on someone else....even the customer, as seen already in this thread. And therein lies the heart of the problem with typical dealerships, its not making a profit or collecting fees & taxes, its...the methods used to do so that have earned that industry its reputation.

LWW

30th April 2008, 13:41

Which if boiled down is exactly the same as saying "we screw our customers around with a bait and switch pricing and negotiating program, but its the governments fault" :rolleyes:
And that is exactly how most dealerships operate....they rationalize and blame their methods on someone else....even the customer, as seen already in this thread. And therein lies the heart of the problem with typical dealerships, its not making a profit or collecting fees & taxes, its...the methods used to do so that have earned that industry its reputation.
Actually, it's the complete opposite, but your hatred of dealers has obviously blinded you to any truthful explanation and any rational discussion on the topic.

You and I have history on these topics, the differences are you talk the talk but I've walked the walk and continue to. I try to help people understand situations and defuse problems ... your approach is to always throw gasoline on the fire.

LWW

wales

30th April 2008, 15:09

Diamond Dave

30th April 2008, 17:27

NOW you are getting to where I was hoping someone would take this.

If people would spend 10% of their efforts on investigating WHO and WHERE to buy from this problem would go away.

LWW

So did you just acknowledge that an overwhelming majority of car lots are dishonest, you just need to find out which ones are not?

Maybe I'm late to this dubious party, but:

Did we ever address why car sales is the only time a "professional" asks you "so how do you think your xxxx is worth?" and then documents that as the value?

What about when they say "if I can get to $XX will you buy today?", but then we find out that the trade in value has changed or an extra line item has appeared on the transaction that was not requested?

Was it ever discussed why when you ask a sales rep for their best price on a unit, they give you a price, you say "that's too high", then they go through a long rigamarole on how they can make you a better deal?

All of these tactics are typically employed in environments outside of the professional realm. YOu want to negotiate a customer on price, but you remove as many opportunities for them to negotiate as possible. Confuse the customer, give misinformation about line items, delay giving information, adjust many variables at once so they can't figure out what the new end result is. All of this is moot though if you state up front "I have money for a car, will you help me spend it." You won't be saving much money, if that's important.

It's rare to find a dealer that I feel values my time, intelligence, and ability to choose in the open market. A simple test drive that is part of a cross shopping exercise is laden with potholes and pratfalls. I think if you (LVW and thedriving) want to reduce the barrage of criticism, it might be easier to acknowledge the misinformation and deceit that is common in the field, then discuss ways to educate us car buying rookies on ways to quickly identify a reputable car salesman/dealership. From my experience though, the task of finding a reputable, sincere, honest dealer is a bit like trying to find a picture of a Unicorn eating a dragon.

Scrooge

30th April 2008, 19:57

Well, I read this thread at work throughout the past two days during downtime, and all I can say is wow! Here are my comments:

thedriving, you are a salesman I would smell in an instant and refuse to deal with. You are insulting and condescending and then wonder why people respond poorly to you. However, you haven't been interested in listening to other people tell you this, so I'm sure you will find fault with me as well.

LWW, I actually agree that OTD price is the only thing that matters. Just as I don't want Best Buy to charge me separately for the invoice on a TV from Sony, rent, utilities, and labor, I frankly don't care how much of what the dealer charges me is allocated to documentation, the car itself, market adjustment, or Tuesday surcharge. What I do care about is that the price does not change after it is agreed upon, for anything. I accept an OTD price and I never expect the slightest variation from that for the rest of the transaction. Sometimes this happens, sometimes it doesn't. The real reason for preferring this is that it does no good to negotiate between two dealers, take the better price (assuming you like each equally at this point), and then have a documentation fee added that dwarfs the difference between the two.

However, I would not have entered this thread without more than that to say. There is much talk in this thread about how automobile purchasing is set up and that attempts to change this (see Saturn) tend to fail. The salesmen pass this off as not their fault, which is true. However, it is not the entire story.

To return to my TV example, there are two ways to purchase a TV:
1) Enter a retail store, haggle (if you're smart), and purchase
2) Purchase online from place on razor-thin margins for a straight, but fair, price

Now, for automobiles, option 2) is not possible. This is directly due to NADA! They have lobbied strongly for regulation that would prevent any method other than traditional, independent dealer chains for new automobile sales. This forces people to interact with salesmen to purchase, or use third-party intermediaries with their associated overhead as well. This is an issue because while some people honestly need a salesman's help, as they do not know what is available on the market and what features they would like (not that most salesmen will honestly attempt to help them with this), to some people the salesman is unneeded overhead and expense. I have seen countless arguments by salesmen on all sorts of car forums along the lines of "I have the right to make a buck too!" "You don't haggle with Stop&Shop!" or other statements along those lines. The thing is, Stop&Shop actually provides me a service I want (need, actually). Car salesmen are leeches in the process that make things more difficult and expensive but are legally required. I would honestly prefer that more manufacturers did things like Drive For the Cure, the Zoom Zoom Live events, or such, where you can try the cars under a completely no-pressure situation, and then just order at will, direct from the factory, at margins similar to those that all items are approaching.

As an aside, any salesman who pulls a line about deserving to make a profit is a poorly trained monkey (I say that about everyone who sucks at their profession). My employer and its clients do not use such lines in contract negotiation, and neither is interested in ensuring the other makes a fair profit. They both go for the best price they possibly can, hardball, and if it isn't worth it for someone to enter the contract, they don't. That's how grown-ups do business.

A final aside, I'm certainly not going to pay the dealer $1000 extra to put an extra $300 in the salesman's pocket for being a good salesman. The dealer does not deserve to make $700 just because I'm trying to do right by a good salesman.

Lance Schall

30th April 2008, 20:05

Yeah! What he said!

And why can't I deal with the principal? I got cash in my pocket and the sales guy has to go check with his mommy to see if he can sell me a car?

And why isn't OTD really OTD? They always got to add something after the deal is done. I turned on my heel and walked out of a place that had a little sign on the sales desk, "After we agree on a price, we will add a fee of $300 for...." (I forget what)...

It's easy for me to boycott dealers as there are no cars produced that I want, but that's another thread...

Greg 713

30th April 2008, 20:24

Maybe I'm late to this dubious party, but:

I think if you (LVW and thedriving) want to reduce the barrage of criticism, it might be easier to acknowledge the misinformation and deceit that is common in the field, then discuss ways to educate us car buying rookies on ways to quickly identify a reputable car salesman/dealership.
A FEW posts late to the party but welcome just the same! :-)

See post 175. LWW did just that.

It is an archived thread in the Garage section too under, "Buying a New Car". Take the time to read it and you will be enlightened. It isn't often somebody so clearly takes you through the car buying process.

chickdr

30th April 2008, 20:55

To return to my TV example, there are two ways to purchase a TV:
1) Enter a retail store, haggle (if you're smart), and purchase
2) Purchase online from place on razor-thin margins for a straight, but fair, price

Now, for automobiles, option 2) is not possible. This is directly due to NADA! They have lobbied strongly for regulation that would prevent any method other than traditional, independent dealer chains for new automobile sales. This forces people to interact with salesmen to purchase, or use third-party intermediaries with their associated overhead as well.

Actually this is untrue- www.carsdirect.com allows people to buy directly from their website(typically at a discount). The car is delivered at a local dealership but you buy and finance through Carsdirect. You can also use a place like Sam's Club or Costco to buy your car at a discounted rate. So while agree with some of your post, this info is not correct.

Scrooge

1st May 2008, 06:50

Actually this is untrue- www.carsdirect.com allows people to buy directly from their website(typically at a discount). The car is delivered at a local dealership but you buy and finance through Carsdirect. You can also use a place like Sam's Club or Costco to buy your car at a discounted rate. So while agree with some of your post, this info is not correct.

I apologize for the incorrectness; now that you mention it, I did see a reference to Costco car purchasing in the NC forum. Still, I believe manufacturers are barred from selling automobiles directly to consumers (unlike any other industry, I believe), and I know NADA is the group that lobbied for this legislation. I'm surprised non-traditional dealers got through them.

Still, the main point of that remains correct, which is that NADA fought tooth and nail to avoid any change to the status quo.

LWW

1st May 2008, 07:15

Are those readily available?
Ask.

If they won't show you their's ... well if that wasn't a shot across the bow I don't know what would be.

I used to post ours, along with our competitor's on the door when you walked in.

There was a reason I did and others didn't.

LWW

LWW

1st May 2008, 07:17

I apologize for the incorrectness; now that you mention it, I did see a reference to Costco car purchasing in the NC forum. Still, I believe manufacturers are barred from selling automobiles directly to consumers (unlike any other industry, I believe), and I know NADA is the group that lobbied for this legislation. I'm surprised non-traditional dealers got through them.

Still, the main point of that remains correct, which is that NADA fought tooth and nail to avoid any change to the status quo.
Manufacturer's are banned from this by state law in all 50 states because of consumer outcries of abuse.

I would love to watch for just one month as the average consumer dealt with the factory.

Trust me, you would be begging for a return to the old days.

LWW

LWW

1st May 2008, 07:20

Actually this is untrue- www.carsdirect.com allows people to buy directly from their website(typically at a discount). The car is delivered at a local dealership but you buy and finance through Carsdirect. You can also use a place like Sam's Club or Costco to buy your car at a discounted rate. So while agree with some of your post, this info is not correct.
Not really.

CARSDIRECT and online services are a lead generator and nothing more.

They DO NOT seek out the lowest price in the market.

They DO seek out which dealer will bid the highest amount to be their dealer in that market and post that delaer's price.

The car is bought from and financed through the dealer.

It does nothing but add one more middle person's profit to the mix.

If someone prefers that avenue that's fine, but understand it for what it is.

LWW

LWW

1st May 2008, 07:26

And why can't I deal with the principal? I got cash in my pocket and the sales guy has to go check with his mommy to see if he can sell me a car?
Gee ... I just bought a plasma from Best Buy and they didn't let me talk to the CEO. I wonder why?

I asked for a discount from the list price. They had to go check to see if it could be done. I wonder why?

I could have paid the asking price, but I'd rather spend a few minutes and go home with more $$$.

You can't have it both ways.

There is a price marked on every new car on the lot. If you want zero involvement then come in with cash, no trade, and pay the price.

What's so hard about that?

When you sell your own car do you put one non negotiable price and tell me to take it or leave it? Of course not. I wonder why?

If I agree to pay your asking price, do you take my money or do you tell me your price had fluff in it and you'll lower it? I wonder why?

LWW

LWW

1st May 2008, 07:30

And why isn't OTD really OTD? They always got to add something after the deal is done. I turned on my heel and walked out of a place that had a little sign on the sales desk, "After we agree on a price, we will add a fee of $300 for...." (I forget what)...
And when you run an ad as a dealer the law REQUIRES that you make a similar disclosure that tax, title yadda - yadda - yadda is added.

That's why I say an OTD price.

When you buy a TV for $999 they never charge me $999 at checkout either. D'UH!

LWW

LWW

1st May 2008, 07:37

A FEW posts late to the party but welcome just the same! :-)

See post 175. LWW did just that.

It is an archived thread in the Garage section too under, "Buying a New Car". Take the time to read it and you will be enlightened. It isn't often somebody so clearly takes you through the car buying process.
And thanks again, but as is witnessed in this thread repeatedly ... a lot of people don't WANT the process simple and if you make it simple they scream even worse.

I got to where I could read people accurately ... and after awhile I knew a lot of people from past dealings ... and I could pick up on who you could talk sense to and who would drive for days even if you priced a car at a loss.

It's really very simple, if you want a minimal hassle deal buying a car, house, or anything else you pay a price and accept that it may be a little more.

If you want to save a few bucks then you play the game ... and accept that it was your decision.

Most dealers play it from the start because almost everyone who walks in the door insists upon it. An inexperienced sales rep is honestly befuddled when someone walks in the door who is honest and has a clue.

As a business you are what your market demands or you don't survive, and the survival rate of 1 price stores is abysmal.

LWW

LWW

1st May 2008, 07:38

Oh, BTW, when I bought the plasma I beat the best web price by $57.00 after tax/freight was taken into account ... so, no, web pricing seldom is the least expensive option possible.

LWW

chickdr

1st May 2008, 15:26

Gee ... I just bought a plasma from Best Buy and they didn't let me talk to the CEO. I wonder why?

I asked for a discount from the list price. They had to go check to see if it could be done. I wonder why?

I could have paid the asking price, but I'd rather spend a few minutes and go home with more $$$.

You can't have it both ways.

There is a price marked on every new car on the lot. If you want zero involvement then come in with cash, no trade, and pay the price.

What's so hard about that?

When you sell your own car do you put one non negotiable price and tell me to take it or leave it? Of course not. I wonder why?

If I agree to pay your asking price, do you take my money or do you tell me your price had fluff in it and you'll lower it? I wonder why?

LWW

Don't think the CEO of BB works in a storefront location LWW. Not at all analogous to what Lance said. He is asking why the "guy in the glass tower" (in most dealerships) does not deal directly with the customer. He is the one who has the say in the matter of pricing, right? Is the GSM so important he can't talk to the customer himself(except for the BS obligatory "hello" when you come in for a test drive for the first time)? Seems pretty assinine to add the layer of the saleman if he/she has no power to make the deal on their own...

chickdr

1st May 2008, 15:28

Oh, BTW, when I bought the plasma I beat the best web price by $57.00 after tax/freight was taken into account ... so, no, web pricing seldom is the least expensive option possible.

LWW

What model and price? I bet I could beat it on the web.... It is very unusual to find a better deal at a brick and mortar over an online place with little/no overhead costs.

justin.b

1st May 2008, 15:37

Don't think the CEO of BB works in a storefront location LWW. Not at all analogous to what Lance said. He is asking why the "guy in the glass tower" (in most dealerships) does not deal directly with the customer. He is the one who has the say in the matter of pricing, right? Is the GSM so important he can't talk to the customer himself(except for the BS obligatory "hello" when you come in for a test drive for the first time)? Seems pretty assinine to add the layer of the saleman if he/she has no power to make the deal on their own...

You're left eith two choices - empower everyone on the floor with final pricing authority and the potential to lose the dealership money, or wait in line for the one sales manager to deal with each customer directly.

I understand the manager / salesman thing. It's really the only way to do it. Of course, I won't sit at the table waiting while they're having a conference. I get up and go look at whatever car is closest to the exit so it looks like I may be leaving... or go sit (hide) in a car so it looks like I did leave. Since we're playing games, I try to have some fun. You may find that the hide-and-seek method does not increase your success at negotiating but it's better than sitting at that damn table waiting.

-Justin

wales

1st May 2008, 15:52

Ask.

If they won't show you their's ... well if that wasn't a shot across the bow I don't know what would be.

I used to post ours, along with our competitor's on the door when you walked in.

There was a reason I did and others didn't.

LWW
Good to know. Is there an industry benchmark for what a good score is?

Greg 713

1st May 2008, 16:28

Good to know. Is there an industry benchmark for what a good score is?
Here is an bad turn (http://www.autosavant.net/2007/09/furor-grows-over-dealership-csi-scores.html) on CSI scores.

People are people, not a machine and a manufacturer requiring "perfect only" or anything else = black marks is ludicrous. If you don't have a bell curve of some sort, you have no good data IMHO.

LWW

1st May 2008, 18:44

What model and price? I bet I could beat it on the web.... It is very unusual to find a better deal at a brick and mortar over an online place with little/no overhead costs.
Not if you are willing to haggle a little.

The best deal on the web are always on discontinued models and/or refurbs.

LWW

LWW

1st May 2008, 18:47

Here is an bad turn (http://www.autosavant.net/2007/09/furor-grows-over-dealership-csi-scores.html) on CSI scores.

People are people, not a machine and a manufacturer requiring "perfect only" or anything else = black marks is ludicrous. If you don't have a bell curve of some sort, you have no good data IMHO.
There is some truth to that, but that all being said ... a 3.9 out of 4 is better than a 3.8 out of 4.

The people at the top are there for a reason, as are the people at the bottom.

Plus, no matter how someone may jigger the system ... 1 single irate buyer who gives you a 0.0 will blow your YTD stats out of the water.

LWW

chickdr

1st May 2008, 19:17

Not if you are willing to haggle a little.

The best deal on the web are always on discontinued models and/or refurbs.

LWW

Not in my experience. I can always find the latest and greatest in electronics at huge discounts over a local store. They would laugh me out of the place if I tried to get them match the price.

Greg 713

1st May 2008, 20:30

There is some truth to that, but that all being said ... a 3.9 out of 4 is better than a 3.8 out of 4.

The people at the top are there for a reason, as are the people at the bottom.

Plus, no matter how someone may jigger the system ... 1 single irate buyer who gives you a 0.0 will blow your YTD stats out of the water.

LWW
So what are you to do? You get 1 customer who insists he is getting screwed and becomes a complete jerk. He gives you a 0.0 and your stats take a hit? If you sell a billion units a month it is a problem but not huge. You take a dealer in a smaller town (30,000) who has a 2 manufacture store. Jerkweed comes in with a 0.0 and messes up your CSI? Is there any way to counter that?

Lance Schall

1st May 2008, 21:03

In this case there is a certain poetic justice in the CSI survey. The industry hoisted by their own petard... ha ha ...Bad testing, bad sampling, bad questions, bad execution, bad statistical understanding and....the results are bad! Imagine that.

A well designed survey would be fair, generate a bell curve, and be actually useful.

LWW

2nd May 2008, 02:48

So what are you to do? You get 1 customer who insists he is getting screwed and becomes a complete jerk. He gives you a 0.0 and your stats take a hit? If you sell a billion units a month it is a problem but not huge. You take a dealer in a smaller town (30,000) who has a 2 manufacture store. Jerkweed comes in with a 0.0 and messes up your CSI? Is there any way to counter that?
That's a gut check.

I've had people threaten to burn me with a CSI after the sale if I didn't give a concession of XXX after the fact.

I never gave in and I've never seen such a twit actually follow through.

Again, it's value is comparative. Finishing 2nd out of 20 doesn't mean you suck and that I would eliminate you from consideration. Finishing 15th out of 20 would however ... I would probably stick with a top 5 or top 3.

LWW

LWW

2nd May 2008, 02:49

Not in my experience. I can always find the latest and greatest in electronics at huge discounts over a local store. They would laugh me out of the place if I tried to get them match the price.
Have you tried?

The shipping is usually the killer on TV's and such.

LWW

ACBlessing

2nd May 2008, 03:44

Well, it's been a couple days since I've had the gonads to get past all the pro-dealiership diatribe for the first six pages and despite my spirited, yet reverse antagonism toward the car-sales troll... I must confess that being a military officer and with a master degree in computer engineering, that I can pretty much understand little words and big words...all at the same time I tell you. It's actuallly quite amazing and I reward myself with a fresh latte everytime I experience such an epiphany.

The fundamental is the same, no matter how many times someone's similar experience supports me nor does the preception of someone who has been ripped off at a dealership, fear not for you may join our club of vicitms and we are not even right-wing nor hold Sunday classes furthermore, not support Jerry Fallwell nor any other like organization...or nary a label the the unenlightened car-salesmen need worry about the political climate in Cuba nor Colombia. Hell, politics aside, the only thing you need to qualify is to be ripped off at a dealership which is systematic not matter where you go or where you are from.

No, this tread, no mater how it has become bastardadized, is the direct relist of arrogant, condescending and ultimately predatory salesscum, masters in their own right about scammanship, predatory hostility and so forth, not to even address the obscene profit margins and scams victimized upon common customers.

Reading the entirenty of this threat (ad nauseum) go my responses from the bemused to the absurd. It's its a game of grammar and credentials, I'm pretty confident my meager eight posts bely a more thorough understaning of our mutual language but certainly not to supercede that totality of negative experiences of dealing with an auto dealership, especially with one who employs someone of your patented ingorance and abject arrogance and absurdity.

Ordinalriy, I would look this over as a matter of bravado but in this case, it is akin to saying I'm already an elderly abuser as you are all worthless paycheck, robots to me....as opposed to generally saying something to that effet.

While I have a special place for understanging, I have a much less desireable canister of speicalized $hit for which I place your responses. In your world, I should just agree and admit that being human, we are much too emotional in our pursuit of a fair deal in your screw-a-torium. I must be certainly wrong (due to my lack of understaning big words like "holdbacks," "kickbacks" and switcharoo financing sheets, warranty packages and so on to realize that it is really "MY" problem paranoia getting the better of me and that you're looking after my best interest.

As a matter of fact, I don't know how this thread continued beyond 4000 readingings because, of course, you're right, and all the rest of us are wrong. How dare we leave when we're treated like imbiciles? How dare we ask (with our tails between our legs, that we get more than $2.50 for our 2006 trade in. How dare we objectify you, the ulitmate symbol of light and all that is good and suggest that you must certaily be correct in everything you do and that all that befalls us (such as the pennies on the dollar you give us for a trade-in is hosher or that 13% financing, despiste my perfect credit is all that the back will give me...meaning the back that gives you a scheduled kickback for railroading me to them, that is........

Yes, perhaps reading big words is a challenge to me and perhaps I shouldn't have had paid leave from the battlefront to read your verbal vomit about how you DESERVE an absurd pay despite your utter hatred and contempt for the average buyer. It would have been nicer if you didn't solicitate us outside our barracks in Iraq to buy your junk gas-guzzlers to begin with.

You sure set me straight now. When I come in to see you, perhaps I may rub your feet and accept your brow-beating me for my stupid thoughts of fairness and negotiation. Perhaps, you'll even call upon your edcutational entirety of your couple years at the dealership and teach me the big words that I never learned at the University of Washington and please o please, show me where I went wrong...big werds en all, k?

Geoclam

2nd May 2008, 04:16

ACBlessing:

Without any doubt, (in my opinion) that was the best, most intelligent, most ironic, back-slapping post I have ever read, on any forum, on any subject!

I could not stop grinning!

Even though I had previously posted to this thread, I stopped following it, as it was becoming so dreary and repetative and banal.

Your comments are a breath of fresh air.
Thank you for your insight.
I hope to hear more from you! :wave:

LWW

2nd May 2008, 08:21

not to even address the obscene profit margins and scams victimized upon common customers.
OK, I can see that you never walk around with a chip on your shoulder. :rolleyes:

Now hotshot, explain to me what you think an obscene profit margin is?

You claim it and you have all the cred, lay it on me.

I'll be waiting.

LWW

justin.b

2nd May 2008, 09:55

Well, it's been a couple days since . . . <blah>

You're trying way too hard.

Put the thesaurus away, turn spellcheck on and try again.

-Justin

LWW

2nd May 2008, 12:09

Oh, and to "thedriving" it is amazing that despite dealerships' systematic screwing of the confused consumer, you deny this guy's natural apprehension toward dealers and instead turn it on him with the same sob story about salesmen needing to make a living too. Give me a break. I guess he should go in to any dealership and stupidly trust that they're (you're) going to treat him honestly. Yes, they may smile and put on a good show but their actions are nothing less than leading the condemned to the gas chamber.

Nobody gives a $h1T about what clues a customer has about salesguy #1 and #2. As a matter of fact, since you're such a despicable bunch, nobody gives a $h1T about your dealership politics towar eachother or toward the customer in the end anyway. You just can't deny the the whole buying process is exactly that... a dishonest, deceitful and purposefully disadvantaging ordeal for a buyer.
I wanted to come back to this as it is an obvious and blatant attack against people he doesn't even know and has no experience with.

It is also a perfect example of someone who comes in looking for a fight.

I've had experience with thousands just like you and I have never seen one yet who was capable of looking in the mirror and seeing that their misery is their own making.

If you bought a car for half of net cost it would make no difference most likely because you would still think the fact that you actually paid money meant that you were screwed.

My most effective tactic with someone like you was to give you a take it or leave it price with a pad built in for having to put up with you and then hope like heck you left it because the time spent putting up with you would probably cost me 2 more sales.

You probably would complain every time you came in for service and be the guy who took his car apart Friday night and then tied up a svc writer all day on Saturday wanting to know how to put it back together ... for free of course and then call me and complain that they didn't have a good attitude while you wasted their time.

This isn't meant to crucify you mind you, but you volunteered and happen to be a classic example.

Anyone who defends your attitude, please send your phone number and home address so he can pester you next time.

One of the hardest lessons I ever learned, and some never learn it, is that whether you are buying OR selling ... there are some people who aren't worth it no matter how much it appears is being made or saved going in.

LWW

ACBlessing

2nd May 2008, 12:51

I'm basically commenting car buying experience in general. Quickly put, ordinary people do not deal with car sales every day and are not aware of the schemes in place from the moment they walk in the door. I mean some salesmen really give award-winning performances that should give the Oscars a new category to award in.

The deceitful dialog, the upselling, the bait-and-switch, the back-and-forth with the sales manager and finally in the finance office the customer gets whacked with "document fees" and mysterious little add-ons. The agreed upon monthly payment suddenly squeaks up ten more dollars and for the icing on the crap cake, the customer gets conned into an $1,800 extended warranty that covers nothing more than muffler bearings, all while the financer tells the customer the warranty is necessary for the car to be financed.

I've even seen last-minute changes to the contract whereas the customer's trade-in value goes down while the car's price goes up resulting in higher sales tax and another year of financing....but as long as the customer sees the monthly payment hasn't changed, they sign.

Now I don't feel crucified, in fact I'm quite happy, perhaps not in the mirror since I have to lose a few pounds, and I type my experiences quickly, sometimes messy and without benefit of a spell checker or my glasses or even a thesaurus (Justin). I throw myself out here in the forum with my point of view knowing I'll be hammered down on thoughts, heck even my spelling, as if that's important to some, and you (LWW) should accept the same.

I truly despise the sleazy tactics used by car dealers, not you personally. However, on a personal note, being that you telepathically know what I do on Friday nights, I prefer your "most effective" tactic as well. I would much rather you tell me your take-it-or-leave-it price with a fair profit built in.

That way I wouldn't have to endure two hours of your transparent acting that could've been better spent driving my Miata far away from your dealership. I've learned the same hard lesson as you, no car is worth buying if it means having to deal with people LIKE you.

LWW

2nd May 2008, 13:38

And you deftly dodged a very simple question which someone possessed of your knowledge base should have not problem answering, especially since it was your claim.

OK, I can see that you never walk around with a chip on your shoulder. :rolleyes:

Now hotshot, explain to me what you think an obscene profit margin is?

You claim it and you have all the cred, lay it on me.

I'll be waiting.

LWW

Strangely, I'm still waiting.

LWW

LWW

2nd May 2008, 13:40

As an addendum, the offering of svc contracts is:

1 - A product many consumers buy and see value in.

2 - The law requires that if it is offered to one single consumer it must be offered to everyone.

so, again, we have someone bemoaning that the dealer is doing wrong by following the law.

And, again, nothing will convince you because your ego will never allow you to be wr-wr-wr-wr in error.

LWW

ACBlessing

2nd May 2008, 14:53

I disagree. The service contract is a pure-profit upsell from the dealer that seems like a value to the customer at first until they read the fine print. It is pushed hard on the buyer, even in some cases where the car still has a factory warranty. If they really want it, fine.

What I denounce is the practice of deceiving buyers to take it via fear mongering that the car is going to die next week and lipstick pitches that everything is covered bumper-to-bumper when in fact nothing that is prone to fail like belts and brakes is covered at all.

Sometimes the service contract is added in the financing without the buyer's knowledge or consent, depending on how inept, fearful or old the buyer is (women and senior citizens beware).

It is especially deplorable that service contracts are misrepresented as legally necessary in order to buy the car. Don't act like I was saying service contracts are offered to whites but not minorites and then run off concluding the poor dealership gets blamed for everything, including following the law.

The law may state that service contracts must be offered to everyone equally but that hasn't been a problem nor is that what we're even talking about. I can't see you ever turning down a single person, black, white, latino, Chinese, for the opportunity to make a buck (or a couple thousand) from any buyer.

As for my ego, I already said I was overweight, blind and a messy typist. What else is left to be egotistical about? Could it be your st st stuttering problem is actually conscience pangs or do you actually believe the load of steaming crap you serve up to buyers every day?

Either way, I wouldn't dare to think I can convince you of anything but this is a message board where information other than yours is shared. Besides, how does that saying go?

"Never argue with an idiot because they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

LWW

2nd May 2008, 17:18

I didn't honestly expect you to have an answer ...

LWW

justin.b

2nd May 2008, 17:22

"Never argue with an idiot because they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

No.

Never argue with an idiot because people may not be able to tell the difference.

-Justin

LWW

2nd May 2008, 17:23

BTW, buying a svc contract is risk management and nothing more.

People buy life insurance who have never died.

People buy health insurance who have never been hospitalized.

People buy fire insurance who have never had a fire.

People buy disability insurance who have never been out of work.

People buy collision insurance who have never been in an accident.

And the odds are stacked against them in every case.

Others don't, and choose to accept all risk(s).

All are a waste of money if you never use them.

All are a blessing if you do.

Don't try "THAT'S DIFFERENT!" because it isn't.

LWW

LWW

2nd May 2008, 17:28

It is especially deplorable that service contracts are misrepresented as legally necessary in order to buy the car. Don't act like I was saying service contracts are offered to whites but not minorites and then run off concluding the poor dealership gets blamed for everything, including following the law.
That situation is correct, and nobody mentioned minorities.

What I said was that if I offer a svc contract to ANYBODY I must offer it to EVERYBODY.

If I don't and someone comes back with a barrister and an out of warranty claim I had better have a signed waiver or be ready to eat the repair ... but that's what 25 yrs in the business, the NADA, the OADA, the Ohio Atty General, and the Federal Trade Commission tell me. Of course, you know better. :rolleyes:

LWW

austxdfw

2nd May 2008, 19:35

1) You complained so gimme a figger hot shot.

LWW

2) Now hotshot, explain to me what you think an obscene profit margin is?

You claim it and you have all the cred, lay it on me.

I'll be waiting.

LWW

3) And you deftly dodged a very simple question which someone possessed of your knowledge base should have not problem answering, especially since it was your claim.

Strangely, I'm still waiting.

LWWIt is strange, indeed, why you're being ignored not once, not twice, but three times, hotshot. :bang:

LWW

3rd May 2008, 05:55

If you are attempting to make a moral equivalence between the words "HOTSHOT" and the insults tossed by the one making these accusations ... well, you lose hands down.

However, being the benevolent person I am ... I apologize for the use of the word "HOTSHOT" and request that either of you two (Or Both.) kind and learned members of the forum please answer the question at hand?

I'll be waiting.

LWW

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 09:13

If you are attempting to make a moral equivalence between the words "HOTSHOT" and the insults tossed by the one making these accusations ... well, you lose hands down.

However, being the benevolent person I am ... I apologize for the use of the word "HOTSHOT" and request that either of you two (Or Both.) kind and learned members of the forum please answer the question at hand?

I'll be waiting.

LWWWell, let's see what I can do for you, Tiger.

[previously from LWW..]That explains nothing.

You use the phrase "pennies on the dollar" so let's rlate that ... how many pennies on the dollar of sales do you think the dealer should make?

You complained so gimme a figger hot shot.

LWW

Are you looking for an exact rate? Seriously? A one-size-fits-all rate? If that's what you're waiting for, you're wasting your time.

I'll try again to give you an example of a deceptive practice by relaying my last car shopping experience to you..

Dealer 1) Full-on refused to budge on his sticker price. Says that's what those cars are going for these days.

Plus, he full-on refused to offer me more than a couple thousand on my SUV trade-in.

Dealer 2) Offered me several thousand on my trade-in; and, after a few rounds of bartering, brought the price of his car to exactly where I thought the price should be.

Now, back to my assessment of the game..

Had I blindly trusted Dealer 1, I would've never discovered Dealer 2, and I would've been out THOUSANDS of dollars for the same trade-out: SUV to Miata.

In summing it all up.. Dealer 1 lied to me when he said that that's all my trade-in was worth, and he lied to me when he said there was no room to budge on his car.

If you don't see the deception in that, I honestly can't think of another way to break it down to where you can understand how a dealer's lies could cost a person thousands.

One last note.. surprisingly enough, and I use that term loosely, Dealer 1 called me the following day. Imagine my sorrow when I had to tell him, "What?" "You DO have some wiggle-room?" "Gee, I'm sorry, but I've already purchased a Miata."

LWW

3rd May 2008, 09:49

The claim was dealers making obscene profits and I've asked for a definition of what an obscene profit is.

Let me make it real easy for any of you who "know" ... how many cents per dollar of sales in your opinion is reasonable for a dealer to make.
Your opinion. I know what the factual answer is and will be pleased to post it and document it AGAIN once one of our resident auto economics experts has given me their definition.

I may like your number better ... who knows. You may like mine better. It was y'alls claim, so please answer the question and stop deflecting the point.

I'll be waiting.

LWW

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 09:57

The claim was dealers making obscene profits and I've asked for a definition of what an obscene profit is.

I'll be waiting.

LWWA profit of thousands seems pretty obscene to me. :rolleyes:

If you're waiting for more, enjoy your wait. It seems to me you've met your match and are simply hoping for a slip-up to pounce on. :wave:

Greg 713

3rd May 2008, 10:20

Dealer 1) Full-on refused to budge on his sticker price. Says that's what those cars are going for these days.

Plus, he full-on refused to offer me more than a couple thousand on my SUV trade-in.

Dealer 2) Offered me several thousand on my trade-in; and, after a few rounds of bartering, brought the price of his car to exactly where I thought the price should be.

Now, back to my assessment of the game..

Had I blindly trusted Dealer 1, I would've never discovered Dealer 2, and I would've been out THOUSANDS of dollars for the same trade-out: SUV to Miata.

In summing it all up.. Dealer 1 lied to me when he said that that's all my trade-in was worth, and he lied to me when he said there was no room to budge on his car.
The unfortunate problem we buyers have created (go back about 180 posts) is that we want to haggle. Dealerships with a 1 price (Saturn) were expensive and unsuccesful.

Were you buying new exact, make, model and options or used? No 2 used cars are the same.

The problem with Dealer 1 is that likely the sales person was very underqualafied (go back about 120 posts) in combination with some other unknowns. You were trading an SUV, what if they had a back lot full of SUVs and the couple of thousand was all they could give you as they already had 10 gas guzzling SUVs that they were going to have to wholesale. Had you gone in there with a Civic the trade they would have offered would have been substantially more "pound for pound".

What if dealer 2 had 3 SUVs on the back lot with room for more? and what if dealer 2 had not sold a bunch of cars getting 28mpg or better like dealer 1 had. Maybe dealer 1 had sold all cars getting 28mpg or better for sticker or very close to it?

Had you not gone to dealer 2 you would have been lazy. You were a good shopper. That makes dealer 1 a loser, dealer 2 a winner and you a winner.

Have you ever sold or purchased for a living? How often do you put the lowest price you will sell for or the highest price you will pay as the 1st offer? Cars aren't gallons of milk at the grocery store.

I am not picking sides. Believe it or not I have read every post in this thread. Dealers don't have a bad rap for nothing. What is interesting is seeing the bad rap they get for the problems we buyers bring. There is 1 car salesmen who posted and if he isn't his own worst enemy then I don't know who is. LWW has a "buyers guide" in the garage section. Very good information if you want to purchase a new or used car and not get the run around and how to get the best deal. It is advice from the "other side of the desk" .

I think the majority of bad stories come from "'gotta have it" impulse buyers who then have buyers remorse. Is that the dealers fault?

Greg 713

3rd May 2008, 10:29

A profit of thousands seems pretty obscene to me. :rolleyes:
Well THOUSANDS is anywhere between 2 thousand and 999,999 thousand so we have to be a little more exact. I mean c'mon.

Every town has one. Go to your "auto mile". Look at the overhead there. No we buyers didn't ask for the spinning car on an elevated platform but what about the must haves. Inventory, lights, service department equipment, parking, showroom, health care, salaries and how could we forget BALLONS!

What is the percentage of ROI at a dealer? at a bank? I bet our local banks are screwing us way more than car dealers. And they have OUR money!

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 11:01

The unfortunate problem we buyers have created (go back about 180 posts) is that we want to haggle. Dealerships with a 1 price (Saturn) were expensive and unsuccesful.

Were you buying new exact, make, model and options or used? No 2 used cars are the same.

The problem with Dealer 1 is that likely the sales person was very underqualafied (go back about 120 posts) in combination with some other unknowns. You were trading an SUV, what if they had a back lot full of SUVs and the couple of thousand was all they could give you as they already had 10 gas guzzling SUVs that they were going to have to wholesale. Had you gone in there with a Civic the trade they would have offered would have been substantially more "pound for pound".

What if dealer 2 had 3 SUVs on the back lot with room for more? and what if dealer 2 had not sold a bunch of cars getting 28mpg or better like dealer 1 had. Maybe dealer 1 had sold all cars getting 28mpg or better for sticker or very close to it?

Had you not gone to dealer 2 you would have been lazy. You were a good shopper. That makes dealer 1 a loser, dealer 2 a winner and you a winner.

Have you ever sold or purchased for a living? How often do you put the lowest price you will sell for or the highest price you will pay as the 1st offer? Cars aren't gallons of milk at the grocery store.

I am not picking sides. Believe it or not I have read every post in this thread. Dealers don't have a bad rap for nothing. What is interesting is seeing the bad rap they get for the problems we buyers bring. There is 1 car salesmen who posted and if he isn't his own worst enemy then I don't know who is. LWW has a "buyers guide" in the garage section. Very good information if you want to purchase a new or used car and not get the run around and how to get the best deal. It is advice from the "other side of the desk" .

I think the majority of bad stories come from "'gotta have it" impulse buyers who then have buyers remorse. Is that the dealers fault?
All-in-all, not a bad post. :)

Re: the questions about my particular dealings that day.. it really doesn't matter what the exact car was, or the dealership's situation of cars on-hand. What does matter is that he lied when he said those were the only figures he could offer. (Proven by the day-late phone call.)

Re: Also..[Well THOUSANDS is anywhere between 2 thousand and 999,999 thousand so we have to be a little more exact. I mean c'mon.]

Agreed, a couple thousand is 2. Generally speaking, 3 could be referred to as a few, and several could be anywhere from 4 to 999,999.

From my post, you can see that the difference in the trade-in offer alone would have had the dealer making more than he should when my goal was to land a deal that would have him making a profit of a few to several hundred dollars; not thousand.

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 11:16

previously: [All-in-all, not a bad post. :) ]

And you didn't attempt to insult my integrity by calling me "hotshot."

I appreciate that. :wave:

Greg 713

3rd May 2008, 12:22

And you didn't attempt to insult my integrity by calling me "hotshot."

I appreciate that. :wave:
Well I don't think I ever called anybody "hotshot" throughout this entire 467,922 post thread but your welcome just the same.
Greg

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 14:03

Well I don't think I ever called anybody "hotshot"You haven't. That's my point. Even in your words of disagreement, you didn't feel it necessary to resort to a condescending tone.

I realize that you consider a certain poster on this site to be informative and helpful, but I've gotta tell you, with the word hotshot, he lost me.

I guess I could maybe see a grown man calling a too-hot-for-his-britches little boy "hotshot" but to use those words when engaging a grown woman in a discussion? Not my cup of tea.

Anyway, thanks for the postings. I appreciate your insight and tactfulness. :)

LWW

3rd May 2008, 16:51

A profit of thousands seems pretty obscene to me. :rolleyes:

If you're waiting for more, enjoy your wait. It seems to me you've met your match and are simply hoping for a slip-up to pounce on. :wave:
Well, I do like your number much better than reality ... although $2K on a $20K sale would be very much in line with business in general a 10% markup.

You also seem to be hiding behind the word s hot shot and excusing far worse verbiage from others ... but I susp[ect that's because you know you have been painted into a corner.

Now, to educate you on the reality vs the imaginary:

2001 = $0.020 per dollar pretax profit.
2002 = $0.019 per dollar pretax profit.
2003 = $0.017 per dollar pretax profit.
2004 = $0.017 per dollar pretax profit.
2005 = $0.016 per dollar pretax profit.
2006 = $0.015 per dollar pretax profit.
______________________________________
6 yr avg = $0.01767 per dollar pretax profit.

Now, when I see you come down on others or monitor yourself for words far worse than hot shot I will give that overly lame argument credence.

Until then, it is obvious you have an agenda that is not fact driven and have no interest in actually HELPING people with the buying process and every interest in maintaining things in as adversarial a manner as possible.

OH MY! (http://www.nada.org/NR/rdonlyres/84CF5FB7-1E11-41AA-A612-4C8C96860A51/0/NADA_DATA_2007_Average_Dealership_Profile.pdf)

LWW

LWW

3rd May 2008, 16:53

previously: [All-in-all, not a bad post. :) ]

And you didn't attempt to insult my integrity by calling me "hotshot."

I appreciate that. :wave:
I did, and I didn't attempt ... I demonstrated that you were talking about numbers you don't understand as if you were an expert.

If you can't take even the slightest amount of heat then please don't talk about what you don't know.

I think we'd all appreciate that.

LWW

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 17:47

I did, and I didn't attempt ... I demonstrated that you were talking about numbers you don't understand as if you were an expert.

If you can't take even the slightest amount of heat then please don't talk about what you don't know.

I think we'd all appreciate that.

LWWIf you can't take the heat of being ignored after acting like a jacka$$, feel free to drop out of the discussion. At least the part that concerns me.

I still don't know what you're looking for, LWW. I think the scenario I shared will help at least a FEW other buyers. If you're looking for me to match boring statistics with you, forget it. One, I don't care much for you; and two, boring statistics do just that.. bore me.

Feel free to move on now, LWW. The only thing that's been painted is a very thick line between us. I have no use for you. It will be great when you realize the same for me.

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 17:51

Lance Schall

3rd May 2008, 17:53

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 17:59

Well, I do like your number much better than reality ... although $2K on a $20K sale would be very much in line with business in general a 10% markup.

You also seem to be hiding behind the word s hot shot and excusing far worse verbiage from others ... but I susp[ect that's because you know you have been painted into a corner.

Now, to educate you on the reality vs the imaginary:

2001 = $0.020 per dollar pretax profit.
2002 = $0.019 per dollar pretax profit.
2003 = $0.017 per dollar pretax profit.
2004 = $0.017 per dollar pretax profit.
2005 = $0.016 per dollar pretax profit.
2006 = $0.015 per dollar pretax profit.
______________________________________
6 yr avg = $0.01767 per dollar pretax profit.

Now, when I see you come down on others or monitor yourself for words far worse than hot shot I will give that overly lame argument credence.

Until then, it is obvious you have an agenda that is not fact driven and have no interest in actually HELPING people with the buying process and every interest in maintaining things in as adversarial a manner as possible.

OH MY! (http://www.nada.org/NR/rdonlyres/84CF5FB7-1E11-41AA-A612-4C8C96860A51/0/NADA_DATA_2007_Average_Dealership_Profile.pdf)

LWWOh god, wait; just one more..

$2K on a $20K sale? Do you really think I paid $20K for a '99 Miata? LOL.

But what am I thinking?! After all, you are the expert.

Greg 713

3rd May 2008, 18:48

Do you really think I paid $20K for a '99 Miata? LOL.You have piqued my curiousity.
OK, now we know what you bought, a 99 Miata.
What did you trade? An SUV for which Dealer 1 offered you $2,??? and Dealer 2 offered you $3,???
Dealer 1's 99 Miata had how many miles and in what condition and what service had been done?
Dealer 2's 99 Miata had how many miles and in what condition and what service had been done?

The "devil is in the details" and using round terms like a "couple thousand" and a "few thousand" is really telling us nothing. $2860 and $3,040 is a couple and a few but really only 6-7% different. I am not saying those are the numbers, it is just a simple example.

I get that dealer 1 told you, "this is the best we can do" and later told you they could do better. Frustrating and swarmy for sure! but really, what salesperson with a negotiable product, e.g., cars, homes (have you ever bought or sold a home), roofs, commercial printing (what I buy), wholesale foodstuffs, or use your own example goes out with the lowest price first? Would you have been a liar if you said you could pay $6000 when in reality your told yourself you would go as high as $6500? Did you disclose EVERYTHING about your trade to both dealers? You don't have to answer of course. It just goes to show how the negotiating process works. Love it or hate it, it is what us buyers want.

Like I said previously I don't have a vested interest either way. Why I have stuck to this thread (for every post) is I like to see why people hate the car sales process. And like I said before, the car business isn't loathed for no reason. They have been, and are, their own worst enemy.

I buy and sell about 5 to 6 cars a year. I am trying to learn what people fear so I can honestly lay their fears to rest when I sell them one of my cars. I prepare my cars VERY well and try to get top dollar when I sell them. I am forthright and upfront on things asked and I even disclosed unasked things. I will tell you everything except what I have into it and what I plan to make. I will also admit I do FAR better than LWW's figures. If I can't make $1500 PROFIT on a car I have $3000 in I won't do it.

LWW

3rd May 2008, 19:03

Oh god, wait; just one more..

$2K on a $20K sale? Do you really think I paid $20K for a '99 Miata? LOL.

But what am I thinking?! After all, you are the expert.
You said thousands of dollars, I used $20K as a rough average selling price for a new/late model used car. You then used a straw argument because you have no facts on your side.

Also, on this topic, I AM an expert.

Thanks for noticing.

LWW

LWW

3rd May 2008, 19:08

I will tell you everything except what I have into it and what I plan to make. I will also admit I do FAR better than LWW's figures. If I can't make $1500 PROFIT on a car I have $3000 in I won't do it.
Good points all, and if you are talking a gross profit I agree.

Most people on the outside, and a lot inside the biz, don't really understand the difference between gross and net profit.

Most people WANT to believe that someone sells a $20K car and only makes $99. They WANT to believe that they actually bought a car for invoice -$2K.

Now, when you enter into a transaction where YOU WON'T BUY unless someone throws you a line of bull how can you possibly blame them for doing what YOU force them to do?

As a closing statement to this post ... if you ever actually DO buy a car where the dealer lost $2K, you probably got the worst deal of anybody who bought there that month.

LWW

LWW

3rd May 2008, 19:10

Call me when it gets to about $0.0015. At that point the compensation will be fair, paying the dealer for the value they add to the process; filling out a few forms and filing/mailing them.
Call me when you are willing to operate a business on that margin and I will consider your response sensible and above trolling.

LWW

austxdfw

3rd May 2008, 19:47

Would you have been a liar if you said you could pay $6000 when in reality your told yourself you would go as high as $6500? would pay, not what I could pay.]

Did you disclose EVERYTHING about your trade to both dealers? [Yes, even the not so pleasant issues.]

I am forthright and upfront on things asked and I even disclose unasked things. [We're the same in that regard.] To the other part of your post.. there are some things on this forum that I just don't care to partake in, and disclosing actual sales prices is one of them. The following copy/paste from a neighboring thread might shed some light as to why:

Posted by Gene-M (In response to a kid who had just bought his 1st Miata, and was wondering if forum members thought he‘d paid too much.): I like it! Where I live, I might happily pay $2k for a clean, rust free car like that. Now, if you had paid $2500 for it everyone here would be telling you that you should have paid $1850. It's a game we often seem to play.

Somehow LWW strikes me as just the type person to play a game of this nature, and I don't like playing with jerks.